Large Kitchen with Electric UFH - 2 Quotes - Advice Please?

[kitchentiles]

I am installing a new kitchen and utility room.


The total area to be tiled is approx 40 sq.mtr.


The existing floor was tiled, I have now removed these and got the adhesive up as well so am now down to the concrete slab as best as I'm going to get it (it is pretty good after spending hours on the SDS drill getting the adhesive off).


The whole floor is going to be laid wall to wall before the new kitchen is installed.


I have chosen new tiles, they are porcelain 60x60cm to be laid straight bond. I also want to install Warmup Electric UFH.


I have had 2 quotes to tile the floor and install the electric UFH.


The two tilers are differing in the way they are going to do it, I don't know which is best?


Quote 1
SLC the floor
Install insulation boards with adhesive
Install warmup wiring mat
Adhesive and Tile on Top




Quote 2
Install insulation boards with adhesive
Install warmup wiring mat
SLC the floor
Adhesive and Tile on Top


As you can see the SLC is in two different places depending on who does the job?


To be fair when they quoted the existing floor was still down, now I have got it up and got the adhesive off really quote well so it is down to the concrete base.

Both tilers have been recommended by a tiling store.


Any advise please?

 

[Gazzer]

I would go with option 2 as the slc over the ufh mat will give protection to the mat while tiling and it helps slightly to disperse the heat when the ufh mat is fully encapsulated in the slc.

 

[Gazzer]

Of course this all depends on how flat the subfloor is , it may need slc before if its too bad.

 

[jonnyc]

i would certainly reccomend having the tiler cover the mats with levelling compound to protect them from damage during installation of tiles.
it may well be necessary to latex the concrete base so it is flat enough to stick down the insulation boards.
i would get both of them to look at subflloor now, with tiles removed and requote if necessary

 

[kitchentiles]

Thanks, I forgot to mention the reason Quote 1 didn't want to do SLC is because he has had problems with the cables poking up when the SLC is setting....

 

[Gazzer]

Then he isnt doing it right. There are ways !

 

[Old Mod]

I would go with option 2 as the slc over the ufh mat will give protection to the mat while tiling and it helps slightly to disperse the heat when the ufh mat is fully encapsulated in the slc.

i would certainly reccomend having the tiler cover the mats with levelling compound to protect them from damage during installation of tiles.
it may well be necessary to latex the concrete base so it is flat enough to stick down the insulation boards.
i would get both of them to look at subflloor now, with tiles removed and requote if necessary

Ditto!!
Single cable system better than mat anyway, more versatile and no sticky up mats haha

 

[CJ]

As above. Option 2

it does depend on how good the sub floor is. If do able,

1. Prime
2. Lay insulating panels
3. Lay Heating cables.
4. Self level (12-14bags)
5. Tile

 

[foggy34]

option 2 for me! but as said above may need levelling first too

 

[Houston]

for me any discrepancies with substrate prime it then prep with slc, fix insulation boards prime again, heating mat then slc over mat then tile

 

[jonnyc]

I always estimate that to cover heat mats properly to approx 5-6mm you will require 1 x 20 kg bag self levelling with fibres to cover 2.50 sq mts.
ie 40 sq mts needs 16 bags but that includes covering areas under units where mat is not fixed so yo end up with even flat floor.

if your fixer has had problems with mats floating up in past he has only himself or the mats he uses to blame.
even with good sticky mats of good quality we still use tape over loose wires and spray glue.
the key is to never leave self adhesive mats overnight before covering and especially if moisture in the air..
they tend to curl up
fixing a cement backed insulation board over 40 sq mts is a man days work and if fixing mats next day , best to prime the boards on first day and let dry out over night.
i know good tilers who cover the heat mat cables or just cable with flex adhesive the day before tile fixing and nothing wrong with that. horses for courses

 

[Houston]

personally I prefer mat than cable. I'm on a job at the moment were we have had to remove about 25m2 Karndean flooring with UfH and insulation boards back to substrate because client wasn't happy with levels etc.. using tilemaster level flex for the first time thought I would give it a go, thanks to DH Tiling for highly recommending their products. Some pics to follow

 

[jonnyc]

personally I prefer mat than cable,

me too. which make do you use ?

 

[jonnyc]

i forgot to ask.
what thickness of insulation board and what type are the tilers prposing to use. the thickness of insulation certainly makes a difference.

 

[kitchentiles]

i forgot to ask.
what thickness of insulation board and what type are the tilers prposing to use. the thickness of insulation certainly makes a difference.

10mm Warmup Boards

 

[Houston]

me too. which make do you use ?

warmup is what i have used most, regarding the Karndean flooring were going to be using prowarm matting, heating element is 2/3mm thick

 

[Lee@emctiles]

Ditto!!
Single cable system better than mat anyway, more versatile and no sticky up mats haha

Really?? Your using the wrong mats.
Find a matt that sticks to any subfloor (its sticky) and you will have no problems whatsoever.
Not a fan of loose cable.

back on topic, quote 2 all the way.

 

[Old Mod]

Really?? Your using the wrong mats.
Find a matt that sticks to any subfloor (its sticky) and you will have no problems whatsoever.
Not a fan of loose cable.

No, I make u right Lee!
Is that a name of a mat in your post? Sorry I'm not quite sure.

But Thing is, it's very rare I either get to supply/advise on a particular mat, let alone fit it!
But i do prefer single cable because it is a bit more versatile and has a lower profile generally.

 

[AliGage]

I much prefer loose wire. Quicker to install and more versatile for awkward layouts.

 

[Gazzer]

Both have their uses. I think the mat version has more issues for some as the matting itself tends to float if not installed correctly. The mats can be a pain in smaller areas.
Wires take a little longer but are more versatile but not really recommended for large areas.....again its down to what the installer prefers

 

[The D]

Both have their uses. I think the mat version has more issues for some as the matting itself tends to float if not installed correctly. The mats can be a pain in smaller areas.
Wires take a little longer but are more versatile but not really recommended for large areas.....again its down to what the installer prefers

so if the mat floats its not istalied correctly?? can you tell me how to insall it correctly so the mat will not float.

 

[Gazzer]

so if the mat floats its not istalied correctly?? can you tell me how to insall it correctly so the mat will not float.

Everyone has their own method. Mine is to use a 4mm trowel with rapid set SPF adhesive. Spread the area where the mat is being laid, push mat into that adhesive. After addy has set then using slc is easy.
Obviously sometimes the mat will stick to the floor with its own sticky back glue, if this is the case then fine but I find that when you pour SLC on it breaks that bond.
I dont like seeing people tape the mats down, a lot of the time it seems to be far too much gaffa tape....and then all the adhesive or SLC is sticky to is that tape.

 

[Old Mod]

I dont like seeing people tape the mats down, a lot of the time it seems to be far too much gaffa tape....and then all the adhesive or SLC is sticky to is that tape.

Hurray that man!!
I tried explaining that to a spark only other month (gently of course!) when he literally covered half the floor with 50mm gaffs tape! To hold down single wire system. He maintained that they did t provide enough tape with kit! He said "they put in enough for one quarter of the cable!" In actual fact what he'd done, as u've probably already worked out, is completely covered cable with the tape instead of laying it perpendicular to it! :6: He wasn't really interested in what I had to say, (yeah I know, strange eh! Haha) because he'd been fitting UFH for 10yrs and knew what he was talking about! Fortunately for me it wasn't the floor I had to tile!

 

[Gazzer]

My dad, (RIP) used to say that its one thing being clever but he would rather have common sense. I prefer to use common sense and unless someone can prove that the tape method is the best way then I will carry on my way.
Actually at Mapei HQ they had a UFH company demonstrate their system and when I questioned why they had used so much tape, they didnt seem bothered !

 

[Old Mod]

My dad, (RIP) used to say that its one thing being clever but he would rather have common sense. I prefer to use common sense and unless someone can prove that the tape method is the best way then I will carry on my way.
Actually at Mapei HQ they had a UFH company demonstrate their system and when I questioned why they had used so much tape, they didnt seem bothered !

just out for sales eh!

 

[Mr Tiler]

What about cables neale do you tape those down to the substrate before slc?

 

[Gazzer]

What about cables neale do you tape those down to the substrate before slc?

I use tape or glue gun. If tape I use as little as possible.

 

[Lee@emctiles]

Like i say, a decent mat will stick to your chosen subfloor, backer board ect ect and wont dovetail, its why we got it designed like that.

i went on a weber training course a few years back, took several fixers who were using an UFH matt that we sold at the time, it had a fabric backing to soak which was meant to work better with the adhesive, never thought we had a problem until i put it down then started floorflexing all over it.......it just dovetailed everywhere......
so when i got back i simple asked if it was possible to produce a matt that was so sticky it would stick to most subfloors, when it came i showed it our warehouse floor, dusty, not ideal......but it stuck.

 

[widler]

Unless the floors really really bad, id spread addy, insulation boards, matt, SLC then tile.
I find it saves time, if it was floorboards, solid but uneven would you SLC over the boards then addy then thermal boards or would you spread addy lay boards and screw down ?
The floor would have to be like the sea on a windy day for me to SLC over it ,even then you could get it flat with just addy and boards, seems a waste of a day to me

 

[AliGage]

Ive neverfound an SLC that will bond to gaffa/duct tape. Another reason I use loosewire (especially Warmups) is the doublesided tape and scrim tape is a brilliant method.

One thing I have to mention 3_fall is some older and current loose wire systems used to fixed with a conductive tape along the whole wire. Some of the older warmup ones used to installed this way.
Still don't think SLC or addy bonded to it though!