Uneven Tiled Floor - Is this bad workmanship?

[Zoggy]

Hi
I have just posted a thread looking for an experienced tiler to come round and give me advice/quote me for a job to fix or re-tile a badly tiled floor
But just after reading and looking pictures of a thread about an uneven floor I really think my tiler has completely bodged my floor.
the area was 45 sq metres and most of the tiles are different heights, I have done the test with a ruler and coin and some are around 2mm difference and quite a few are around 3- 3.5 mm difference.
The kitchen/diner was an extension and my builder was first class in every area, the plastering, screeding etc is to a very high standard so I believe the floor was even.
the tiler was independent to the builder and was recommended to me by a friend so I really think its the result of the tiler and not an uneven floor.
We are hitting our toes on the uneven tiles and there are different height gaps along the skirting and there isn't alot of grout between the tiles, mostly it just looks a mess and its really upset me.
As I said the area was 45 sq metres and took the guy 5 days, he also had an older man that he bought round and helped him for the 5 days. I paid £900 for the labour. Bought and paid for the tiles and grout separately and also he gave me separate bill for £100 for other materials he purchased (he came round a few days before and put some wet material on the concrete floor)

Any advice would be great

I'm trying to upload more but this example goes on every 8 tiles

 

[Gazzer]

Not looking good and that grout looks very low ??
£20 m2 and 2 people on the job. Quite a slow fixing rate ?
Regardless of the condition of the floor the tiles should not be like that. It would be up to the fixer to say if the floor needed and further prep work including SLC.

 

[CJ CERAMICS]

if the rest of the floor is like this then it needs to be ripped up and relayed. did the tiler stagger alot and slurr his words(hic):8:the bad news is that it will cost you more to rip up and refit than the original fitting. you should call the tiler if you haven't already and tell him you need this fixing. 45 sqm on a new flat floor with nothing in i would kill for that.
chris

 

[doug boardley]

if that's an example of the whole floor then you do have reason to be miffed, not good, the wet material he put on the floor? was it levelling compound,ie grey cementy slurry looking stuff?

 

[Ajax123]

There is presumably a "reasonable expectation of levelness" with tiles as there is with Substrates. I assume that if the substrate is SR1 the tiles will generally follow it. I would have thought it difficult to get this wrong unless the substrate prep needed improving wherein as Sir Ramic says the tiler shoudl have informed you.

Get him back to sort it says I

 

[Daz]

I can see why you are dissapointed - it don't look good :yikes:.

You need to get the tiler back, in the first instance, to discuss matters. His comments will detrmine your next course of action.

Did you supply the adhesive?
You need to know what prep work was carried out and what materials were used.

It looks as though the floor needs to come up and be totally redone so you may have a fight on your hands - why should you pay???

 

[CJ]

Dog rough I'm afraid

 

[Zoggy]

I'm not sure what he put down before as we went living in the the house, but was told I couldn't walk on it for a few days
here are some more pictures


what would have been the going rate for a 45 sq metre job (just labour) I know its hard to say as tilers charge different depending on their location, north-south of england
but he assured me a first class job. I'm not a tiler so I didn't ask certain questions at the beginning like will the tiles be even etc I just expected it to be a well laid floor like I see around other people's houses and in shops, resturants and its clearly not, its only when the kitchen and skirting was fitted and we moved back in I saw how bad it was, as I said we catch our toes and the foot of the hoover is always banging over the edges

 

[Zoggy]

sorry here are the extra pictures

 

[Fred]

How many quotes did you get for the job? What was this tilers price compared to the other quotes? And, why did you end up chosing this tiler...work of mouth, good communication on quoting etc?

 

[Ajax123]

Looks like you got the trainee...... You gotta get him back to sort it out.

 

[Zoggy]

This was the only quote we had, I know that doesn't sound too good however I was trying to renovate the whole house, extension, new kitchen, tiled floor, wooden floor, new downstairs toilet, carpets, curtains, rewiring. So my decorator who was also someone who could do most things, he painted, redid the downstairs plumbing/tiled the toilet, wallpapered, some small electrics, he did most of the finishing and I trusted him and his work was exceptional, he recommended the tiler. he said he knew someone who was an experienced tiler and would do a lovely job for me. My decorator worked to a very high standard and never bodged anything so I trusted his word on this guy. He came back with the price after telling him the area.

 

[kilty55]

not a great looking job,to be honest i doubt very much your floor was even as you 1st thought.

however thats the tilers job to sort it out 1st before he starts

 

[Ajax123]

I'm not sure what he put down before as we went living in the the house, but was told I couldn't walk on it for a few days
here are some more pictures


what would have been the going rate for a 45 sq metre job (just labour) I know its hard to say as tilers charge different depending on their location, north-south of england
but he assured me a first class job. I'm not a tiler so I didn't ask certain questions at the beginning like will the tiles be even etc I just expected it to be a well laid floor like I see around other people's houses and in shops, resturants and its clearly not, its only when the kitchen and skirting was fitted and we moved back in I saw how bad it was, as I said we catch our toes and the foot of the hoover is always banging over the edges

The going rate is irrelevent. You agreed to pay a price for a job. Whther that was the going rate or not does not matter. What does matter is that you had a right to expect a reasonable job and it appears that you did not receive one. If this is the case he is in breach of the implied terms of his contract with you. These terms do not need to be in a written contract as they form what the provision of goods and services act calls "reasonable expectation" If he could not do it for said price he should have said before tiling. You should not need to ask if the tiles would be even and level as there would be a reasonable expectation of levelness. I am also not a tiler so I cannot say what the BS says about reasonable expectation. I do know it exists with screeds and concrete bases and I am certain it will be prescribed somewhere - presumably BS 5385 of which I do not have a copy (yet) for tiled floors as well. My best guess would be maximum deviation from a 2m edge of 3mm as this is the general tolerance required for the substrate prior to installation of the tiles. I suspect this installation does not satisfy that requirement.

Get him back ot sort it

 

[Zoggy]

Thanks for all replies, I take on board that the floor might not have been that even, however my builder also completely built a 40 sq metre patio, and laid the paving slabs, I've just looked at them they are even. Also my builder also concreted the hall and another company laid amtico, they have laid it lovely and never mentioned that the crecreted floor was very uneven
What I'm trying to say is there are 3 areas my builder prepared and 2 out of 3 areas look lovely, the only area is the tiled kitchen/diner which indicates its the tilers wrong doing. I have looked at the tiles more closely and where the edges stick up, the opposite end of the tile is in line with the next tile.

But what are my rights, I didn't sign any contract and bought the tiles myself, so if the tiler agreed there was a problem would I only get the offer of relaying them and me buying the tiles again (at £35 Sq metre for the tiles)
Also would I want him to relay him if this is best attempt?

I'm so upset with the tiling, we have spent so much money on the extension, new windows, bi-folding doors, fitted kitchen, i bought very good quality materials and the first thing that hits me everytime I walk into the kitchen/diner is the messy looking tiled floor (plus blobs of food sits in the dips of the grout making it a nightmare to clean and whole tiled floor never looks clean from a distance.

 

[CJ]

Hope you can get it sorted Zoggy

 

[Ajax123]

Thanks for all replies, I take on board that the floor might not have been that even, however my builder also completely built a 40 sq metre patio, and laid the paving slabs, I've just looked at them they are even. Also my builder also concreted the hall and another company laid amtico, they have laid it lovely and never mentioned that the crecreted floor was very uneven
What I'm trying to say is there are 3 areas my builder prepared and 2 out of 3 areas look lovely, the only area is the tiled kitchen/diner which indicates its the tilers wrong doing. I have looked at the tiles more closely and where the edges stick up, the opposite end of the tile is in line with the next tile.

But what are my rights, I didn't sign any contract and bought the tiles myself, so if the tiler agreed there was a problem would I only get the offer of relaying them and me buying the tiles again (at £35 Sq metre for the tiles)
Also would I want him to relay him if this is best attempt?

I'm so upset with the tiling, we have spent so much money on the extension, new windows, bi-folding doors, fitted kitchen, i bought very good quality materials and the first thing that hits me everytime I walk into the kitchen/diner is the messy looking tiled floor (plus blobs of food sits in the dips of the grout making it a nightmare to clean and whole tiled floor never looks clean from a distance.

First thing you should do is contact him and ask him politely to come and fix it. Gice him a time scale in which to respond. Don't be belligerent at this point because he may just turn round and say that he is sorry and he will come and sort it out.

If he does not and you are still dis-satisfied then you must bit more firm. If your contract for laying the tiles was with the tiler then your discussions about replacement should be with him. You must first call him and lodge you complaint demonstrating evidentially that your compalint is valid e.g the pictures you have posted. He will undoubtedly argue but you must try to ignore this and concentrate on facts. Once this is done verbally back it up with a letter expressing the same thing. Make sure that you put in your first line of your letter and in all subsequent written correspondence with him the phrase "Without Prejudice" You must try to resolve the difference amicably. If you cannot resolve your differences I would take it to either court or arbitration. This is cheaper than court. If the tiler had as you seem to imply agreed that there was an issue with the subfloor then he should not have laid your tiles and he is negligent. If however he beleived the substrate to be satisfactiry and has laid the tiles to an unreasonably poor standard then he is still negligent. The only way he would have been able to limit his liability in this would have been to insert a contract clause in order to do so. If you have a written quote with terms and conditions and one of these conditions says that he limits his liability to the cost of replacement of his materials then you are on a sticky wicket as he only has to pay for the cost of materials he has supplied. If this is the case seek legal advice. If this clause is not present then you have nothing much to worry about. I would think very seriously before going to arbitration and look at any paperwork carefully. If paper work exists take legal advice. If not arbitration is probably the best route. Whatever you do though if you go legal with it you will need to demonstrate that you have made every attempt to resolve your differences without recourse to legal action. Courts take a dim view of people who simply say "I am not happy and I am going to sue you". I know how difficult this is but you must put emotion aside and concentrate on the facts.
Has the tiler fulfilled his contract in a reasonable and professional manner. As I said in a previous post I am not sure what would constitute a reasonable expectation of levelness in a tiled surface. Perhaps that is your first bit of research.

Just a query though - is your contract with the tiler or did the builder employ the tiler to do the job. If this is the case then all of the above should be directed to the builder i.e. the person with whom you made the contract.

 

[Ajax123]

By the way sorry about the spelling

 

[Daveyboy]

..... Make sure that you put in your first line of your letter and in all subsequent written correspondence with him the phrase "Without Prejudice" .

This phrase is great if you want to rant and rave, tell half truths, lies, etc, becuase if you use "without prejudice" in a document, that document cannot be presented in court by the other party, unless you present it..if the other party responds and uses the phrase "without prejudice" you cannot present that letter in court unless the other party presents it...

The phrase is a no no if you intend you present the documentation in court at a later date...

 

[Ajax123]

This phrase is great if you want to rant and rave, tell half truths, lies, etc, becuase if you use "without prejudice" in a document, that document cannot be presented in court by the other party, unless you present it..if the other party responds and uses the phrase "without prejudice" you cannot present that letter in court unless the other party presents it...

The phrase is a no no if you intend you present the documentation in court at a later date...

You seem offended by the phrase bt it also has the effect of protecting you against inadvertant declarations of liability. Non legal letter writers don't write very good legal letters. I use the phrase in all my work related complaint correspondence based on advice from my legal team. Otherwise I would need to make sure every letter or report I write was vetted by the legal bods first. You can assign permission for them to present the document if you so wish.

 

[Zoggy]

Thanks for your reply, the problem is there was no contract
The tiler and the builder are completely separate and my builder didn't know or recommend him
He was a recommendation of my decorator (my decorator worked on all the finishing of the house, didn't some small electrics, plumbing, painting, and his work was exceptional. I trusted him and his advise completely.

He recommended the Amtico Floor Fitter and he was excellant as well.
I asked my decorator if he knew of any good tilers and he said yes and recommended this guy. I wasn't living at the house so he came round when I wasn't there and I then dealt with my decorator. he said he was very experienced and would lay the tiles perfectly.

When the tiles were laid all looked fine (there was nothing else in the room, no kitchen, skirting etc) all looked fine and I paid the tiler.
Then the kitchen was fitted, skirtings put down etc and we moved back in, then once we were living in the house I soon realised that the tiles looked a mess. I thought it was maybe the tiles are very matt and the light highlighted egdes however after close inspection I have realised that the tiles aren't laid correctly. I have been going on to my husband for ages now (the tiles were laid march, kitchen fitted and skirting finished april and we moved back in) so as I said I have been moaning about the tiles for ages, my husband thought it was me "just going on" but deep down I knew something wasn't right and only after coming on here and getting advise my experts I knew it wasn't me begining over fussy.

 

[Zoggy]

Sorry I didn't make my point clear in the last post,
a) there wasn't any written contract
b) I paid cash in March this year, the day the tiler finished and said thanks it looks lovely

However, I was wowed by the area being tiled as the last time I had seen it was concrete and of course it looked lovely compared to a concrete floor but only after moving back in, walking on it, seeing how the skirting, kitchen lines up with it, hitting our toes on the uneven edges that I realise it was a bad job. Would I still have a case based on the above.

 

[Ajax123]

Thanks for your reply, the problem is there was no contract

Yes there was a contract. You asked him to lay tiles - he laid them - that is the contract. Verbal or written it is still a contract. there are still going to be reasonable expectations of quality. I guess that it is more difficult to demonstrate the terms of contract with verbals so that might be one for the lawyers. As I said - call the tiler and ask him to come and sort it.

 

[Ajax123]

Sorry I didn't make my point clear in the last post,
a) there wasn't any written contract
b) I paid cash in March this year, the day the tiler finished and said thanks it looks lovely

However, I was wowed by the area being tiled as the last time I had seen it was concrete and of course it looked lovely compared to a concrete floor but only after moving back in, walking on it, seeing how the skirting, kitchen lines up with it, hitting our toes on the uneven edges that I realise it was a bad job. Would I still have a case based on the above.

Have you actually approached the tiler about this.....

 

[Zoggy]

thank you, I will call him tomorrow morning and ask him to come round
I'll keep you posted, thanks for all your advice

 

[Zoggy]

no I haven't spoken to him since he finished the job, I thought it was me being overly fussy and friends or family or vistors are not that honest to say god your floor looks bad, and just say the house looks lovely
but after this thread I realise its not me being fussy and there is a problem
I will speak to him tomorrow

 

[STINGRAY30]

Good luck, hope you get everything sorted.

 

[Terry Cottar]

what tiles are they exactly?

tel

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I looked at this thread a couple of days ago but it was too late in the day to give an honest opinion!
I'am surprised at the number of replies that are eager to express a view based on a couple of photos and a 50p piece.
Example : a Photo shows an area of skirting where the tiling is lower at the end showing a few millimetre gap - how can you tell if the floor wasn't running into a level towards a lower area. What happened to decorators chaulk to the skirting!
Until you know what conditions the tiler was working in/under, I for one would not be prepared to comment on the standard of tiling completed on the information that has been provided.

Timeless John.

 

[Ajax123]

Sorry timeless. I guess I had a bad week and got carried away with the legals. I had 3 visits this week where they all similar - claims against poor workmanship and all 3 unfortunately I had to agree were not good. Got lost in the flow. The advice is based on sound principal but perhaps a bit premature. Several John Smiths later I have mellowed a bit.