Just used 365 drills for the first time - Tile Advice

[Gazzer]

Cornish Crofter,
Using the guide is only until you have made a groove for the bit to sit in, then you can take it away without the bit slipping.
As for your method of cutting square holes, it would take a long time to drill 4 holes and then remopve the centre, just use and angle grinder or the plunge method on a wet cutter....job done.

 

[Deleted member 1779]

Cornish in your last point (post 30) you ask if we sell guide plates only. I'm constantly looking at all options.

We did some pricing work with Screwfix when they wanted to look at us supplying guide plates only as a twin pack for £9.99RRP Each plate would have 5 sizes so the twin pack w$ould cater for ten seperate sizes. But that project is on ice for a moment.

The other thing retail are flagging is the price point of £49.99 is too much for joe public in the DIY sheds like B&Q and so the message is to break the kit.

They think instead of one kit at £49.99 it should be sold as two kits for £29.99 each. The thinking is to offer a fixtures and fitting kit (2x 6mm and 2x 8mm) and then another kit as a "service pipe" kit with 16mm 30mm and 40mm. So if Joe Public wants both kits then its £60 quid. Bottom line is if Mr Retailer with his big shed tells me he wants the split we will have to tow the line. But I am determined for online sales we will keep the BFKMX and its price of £49.99 and then just add the split packs as an addition to the range for retailers. It gives people choice (and keeping the BFKMX is £10 cheaper) I've never done retail before and I am having to bite my tounge and be told what to do!

 

[cornish_crofter]

To be fair I think the retailers may have a point with the £49.00 retail price. I don't like retailers in general as they so often push rubbish that they want to sell, rather than actually sell what people want :mad2:. So it actually pains me to agree with them rather than you , who actually sells what is needed.

If I was looking at this product in a retailer, I would be looking at what I actually need for my work. If it were Focus or B&Q etc and I was a DIYer I would be keen to buy what I felt I needed for my tiling jobs. The smaller bits are quite obvious, whereas most bathrooms still may not benefit from the larger bits. If I were a DIYer it probably wouldn't occurr to me that a 40mm bit would be of any use. DIYers may well drill and notch out a hole to fit, maybe using the smaller bits to help.

...but those are just my thoughts. From your point of view the retailers are simply trying to maximise their (and your) sales, so they're really working for you.

 

[pt44]

I have to agree with the spit idea. I know you are trying to keep the price of the main kit low - and by all means keep selling it online. However, a kit that does the main 2 sizes - the 6mm and 8mm - which covers the most used raw plugs is a great idea. And for a DIY'er, if I rarely needed to cut a large size hole, I wouldn't be tempted to buy a large bit. I'd be much more tempted to get the 6 & 8 and cut lots of small holes instead. As almost certainly the hole will have something over the top which will cover the rough edge.

I've just been using the 6 and 8 all week - and they are truly superb. Well pleased with the whole kit still.

As for the guide - its cheap and plastic - but works fine. I'd consider buying a second one if this one wears out - however, at £5 for one - I'd rather drill a few holes in a piece of wood or plastic and just make it myself. Its not like the guide is doing anything hard. Its just holding the drill in place until a groove is formed - and it forms a groove pretty damn quickly.

Paul

 

[cornish_crofter]

Richard

Just used mine for the first time in cheap ceramic.

Due to my need to fit a tile over existing power and water supply for an electric shower, I had to drill the tile before I put it up. To achieve this I bathed it in water then started with the drill guide. Once I cut the groove I removed said drill giude as suggested.

However it may be worth suggesting the tile is immersed in a cat litter tray or similar with about 1/2" of water in, if it is being drilled before being laid.

Also, whilst drilling, an idea came to me......

Would it be feasable to house a little resevoir of water inside the diamond drill bit? The centripetal force of the drill could then be utilised to expel the water to aid drilling.

I suspect this could be done quite cheaply. A high absorbancy material inside the bit could store the water, and would shed it when the bit is rotated as speed.

You would refill simply by imersing the bit (not the drill) in water.

I don't know if you've already looked at this Richard but it may be worth a thought.

To a certain extend this worked with the 8mm bit. The muck inside did retain a little water so it wasn't going on 100% dry.

 

[DHTiling]

Just push a piece of wet sponge inside the drill bit and HEY!! presto instant water feed.....A tip mentioned on here before...

 

[cornish_crofter]

I'll try that.

 

[Deleted member 1779]

Funny enough this came up the other week with Nigel Stokes - the MD of Arctic. Their team were suggesting we add sponges inside the drills to hold water.

They were saying basically - the lack of a water delivery system is a tricky topic for their salesmen to convince the big boys to look at this kit because every other alternative out there has provided a method to tackle water.

At that time I said they were over-engineering the solution and adding things to the kit and it would take away its simplicity.

I do understand what you are saying and it would mean integrating it into the system. The big sizes could take the fitting of a sponge. But its those sizes that are relatively stable with wear and tear.

The smaller sizes (6mm and 8mm) are too small to have sponges fitted but its that end of the drilling where stability is most difficult to control. At the moment I am talking to my diamond supplier about a stronger version of diamond for smaller sizes. But I will take on the water suggestion. One thing I do know is that we have to be ahead of the completion and re-invention (like washing detergents) is a must for products to survive. Its also help and input from you guys - the end users that keep us smart!

PS: Slightly off topic but the marketing guru's came up with this slogan which is now on the website:

New ideas dont have to be expensive, just creative and effective.

Dealing with a recession demands greater creativity from companies and those who sustain innovation will survive and often thrive as new opportunities open up.
Come on B&Q - Read the bloody message!

 

[cornish_crofter]

I was just thinking of what you could easily integrate into the existing design.

The smaller sizes could have sponges on the outside. Again, charged by dipping the whole bit into water. Whether this would work or simply soak the surrounding area with the centripetal force I don't know, you would need to spend some R&D with that one.

Also, another idea I had whilst using the guide, could you not incorporate suction cups to prevent us having to hold it? I know some people tape it into position but with water around it isn't the best solution.

Or maybe, you could develop a more robust guide that can be used for the whole hole, with an integrated water delivery system. By that I mean holes around the gude hole that expel water when you put pressure on the guide.

 

[DHTiling]

Suction cups only work on smooth tiles and not a riven finish...:mad2:

 

[White Room]

I was just thinking of what you could easily integrate into the existing design.

The smaller sizes could have sponges on the outside. Again, charged by dipping the whole bit into water. Whether this would work or simply soak the surrounding area with the centripetal force I don't know, you would need to spend some R&D with that one.

Also, another idea I had whilst using the guide, could you not incorporate suction cups to prevent us having to hold it? I know some people tape it into position but with water around it isn't the best solution.

Or maybe, you could develop a more robust guide that can be used for the whole hole, with an integrated water delivery system. By that I mean holes around the gude hole that expel water when you put pressure on the guide.

Now your getting complicated

 

[cornish_crofter]

Deleted in error

 

[pt44]

The smaller sizes could have sponges on the outside. Again, charged by dipping the whole bit into water. Whether this would work or simply soak the surrounding area with the centripetal force I don't know, you would need to spend some R&D with that one.

Also, another idea I had whilst using the guide, could you not incorporate suction cups to prevent us having to hold it? I know some people tape it into position but with water around it isn't the best solution.

Or maybe, you could develop a more robust guide that can be used for the whole hole, with an integrated water delivery system. By that I mean holes around the gude hole that expel water when you put pressure on the guide.

Cornish - don't take this the wrong way - but you seem to have totally missed the point of this product. Its a great product at a very cheap price. There are plenty of other products out there supplying systems that continually pump water onto the drill bit etc. They are far more expensive than the 365 system.

The 365 drills work FANTASTICALLY from my experience of them. So what is the problem?

Again - for the guide? Stick in on the wall? Why? You have to hold the guide up for approximately 5 seconds, just to get the first groove cut. Why bother sticking it up with anything? I don't get where you are coming from. You seem to be thinking that the guide has to stay up on the wall during the whole cutting process - it doesn't. 5 seconds max. One hand on drill, one hand on template. Sorry to anyone with only one hand - perhaps a different solution could be found for them. If your drill is too heavy for one handed use - might I suggest a lighter drill. I use a tiny DeWalt 12v with this system. It works superbly. Easy to hold in one hand.

As for the whole sponge idea - why? Following the procedure clearly shown on this forum of simply holding a wet sponge under the drill - and dipping the drill bit into some water - it works flawlessley. You just seem to want to over engineer something that already works. I really cannot understand why. Because it already works!

The drill bits don't even get very hot - I've touched them during drilling. You simply do not need to submerge the whole room in water to cool something that does not need that much cooling.

Bizarre. I'm not trying to stop you improving the product. But I can't see the benefit of trying to solve problems that don't actually exist with this product.

Paul

 

[cornish_crofter]

Yes the product works, and it works well.

I don't think I have missed the point of the product. I know it's a cheap to manufacture and cheap to buy product. Some of the suggestions would cost pennies to introduce. Agreed, this doesn't apply to all of them. I was only offering discussion topics.

The sponge inside was also suggested by Dave (IE the user puts one in), and Richard has acknowledged that a similar idea had been discussed with one of his contacts. Indeed it was Richard himself that said that his contact mentioned that it was the only system without integrated water delivery on the market, in this very thread. I take on board his response that he felt they were trying to over engineer the solution.

Someone else also suggested the tape, can't remember who, but that's what got me thinking about the suckers. As Dave said, riven tiles would not benefit.

I never said you would need to submerge the whole room in cold water before drilling, that's just being silly. I was just suggesting that tiles that are drilled prior to fixing could be drilled in water to prolong the life of the bit, and keep dust down.

I don't think anything I've written is Bizarre. You and others may disagree with its validity, which is fine, but, no matter how many times I read your post I can't understand why you padded it out with what some may read as digs at me.

Just your case for leaving the product well alone would have sufficed.

 

[pt44]

What can I say? I've clearly upset you and for that I apologise. It certainly was not my intention to do so.

As for attempting to have a dig at you - no, again, that was not my intention. My intention was to question your suggestions (and those of others) as to whether they added anything to the product - or were merely trying to over engineer a simple product and turn it into something much more complex and as a result of which - it would turn into something more expensive.

I'm totally not against spending money on good tools. Most of my tools are top end products from the likes of Metabo, so I'm certainly not after cheap tools. However, I still believe that the product in question is a great simple product. That if it can be improved - by all means improve it. But to my own mind, I cannot see how it could be improved, without it costing far more money.

Perhaps in my last post my sarcastic humour got the better of me, but I repeat that for example in the case of the plastic guide. I cannot see how it can easily be improved. It has to be cheap enough, because it will get worn. However, it only has to serve a few seconds use on each hole, so I really cannot see a problem in holding it using one's spare hand. As I said before, I could understand it being a problem if one was using a heavy drill perhaps. But if one used a small battery operated drill, then only one hand is needed on the drill - and the other can easily hold the guide. A small suggestion/improvement that I would love to see - but do not know how to implement would be to give the guide a non-slip backing. As my only (tiny, tiny) complaint would be that it can sometimes slide around, if one is not careful about applying the correct amount of pressure to it. But I really cannot understand the need or want - to stick it up on the wall using any method, since it only needs to be held there for such a short amount of time.

As for the sponge etc. inside the drill. Again, my thoughts on this are that if the sponge was made to fit, then it would become an accessory, sold at a price that would make it non cost effective. And if one was to make up pieces of sponge oneself, I can understand the reason for it, but I would think that the bit of sponge would simply get very blocked up with the waste matter - and need frequent replacing. Surely the point of the sponge is to keep water near the surface of the drill head. This could surely be better done by providing a spray of fresh and clean water by using a pressurised garden sprayer and simply holding the nozzle near the drill tip. However, its far easier to simply remove the drill head, dip it in some water in a tray/bucket - cleaning off the debris, then re-insert it into the hole. Since, surely having the drill head clean is the whole point. Cooling is also an issue I know, but as I said in my last post, from what I've seen and read the drill tip doesn't actually get that hot, compared to other drill types.

Sorry once again that by disagreeing with your ideas, I inadvertently upset you. It was not my intention. I do tend to write in a very blunt way (it has been noted many times in many forums) but I don't write just to upset people, I write what I think because I have strong opinions on subjects.

Paul