British Standards ? Set me straight please ? - Tile Advice

[Leatherface]

Please can someone set me straight on this British Standards issue ?

Of all, of our members I imagine that only a small percentile are familiar with all of the British Standards pertaining to tiling ? Copies of which ( as far as I am aware ) are only available to purchase at an exorbitant cost, £160 per updated issue.
( see link )BS 5385 - BS 5385-4:2009

I do not profess to tile to British Standards, I tile to the best of my ability with the knowledge and advice I have available. As do I imagine most of us here ?

Q. Are these law ? Or obligatory ?
Q. Ignorance is no excuse in a court of law, but if you carry out a job that does not fully conform to BS5385-4:2009, does this make you either negligent or accountable ? Whether or not you advertise as carrying out your work to said Standard ?

Q. Why if this is so necessary do they charge so much for access to this information, should it not be freely available in the interests of people being able to adhere to the Standards ?

Advise please, confused ?

 

[Spud]

They are guidelines for best practice so they are not statutory, just guide lines ,if you do however get involved in a legal wrangle with a customer they will be the reference that a judge would make an informed decision on and what any lawyer would argue that a professional tiler should be working to ,if you have a library close to you you can have a look at them for free for an hour, you may take notes but you cant copy them if you wish to look at then for more than an hour the library will charge you, i agree that they cost too much and they should be subsidised if you are a british passport holder and work within the feild of reference you wish to acquire, if they were £50 per part then they would sell like hotcakes, i just dont understand the bsi, in the usa they produce the hand book for ceramic tile installation every year ,this gives guide lines and specifcations for the american standards it costs around $12, why we dont have that here is beyond me, hope this helps
gary

 

[Leatherface]

They are guidelines for best practice so they are not statutory, just guide lines ,if you do however get involved in a legal wrangle with a customer they will be the reference that a judge would make an informed decision on and what any lawyer would argue that a professional tiler should be working to ,if you have a library close to you you can have a look at them for free for an hour, you may take notes but you cant copy them if you wish to look at then for more than an hour the library will charge you, i agree that they cost too much and they should be subsidised if you are a british passport holder and work within the feild of reference you wish to acquire, if they were £50 per part then they would sell like hotcakes, i just dont understand the bsi, in the usa they produce the hand book for ceramic tile installation every year ,this gives guide lines and specifcations for the american standards it costs around $12, why we dont have that here is beyond me, hope this helps
gary

Thanks mate, not trying to decry BS, but as you say the availability & cost puts it out of reach of the people who should be following them.

 

[White Room]

Can't answer your question fully but do know a court of law would be looking at the BS standards if any problems accure. My girlfriend used to work at BS and was on the double glazing side of it and every year the window companys have get their products tested on the glass to carry the kite mark and there are so many court cases because the companys are not upto scratch on the on getting their glass tested every year and still print the kite mark on their materials.

 

[Leatherface]

Perhaps we could do a poll?
Who purchases & keeps and updated copy of BS5385-4:2009 for reference

 

[Rob Z]

Here is the book that Gary mentioned...it's not perfect but it is a great start for all of us in Canada and the US that care about the tile trade. It is not law, per se, but it is definately considered to be an authority and judges and attorneys will reference it when there are disputes.

The handbook is usually updated every two years.

TCNA - TCA Publications

I think the price went down from last year. The order form says $10. I think I paid $12 the last time.

http://www.tileusa.com/MasterWebForms/PDFs/LitOrderForm0908.pdf

 

[Leatherface]

Here is the book that Gary mentioned...it's not perfect but it is a great start for all of us in Canada and the US that care about the tile trade. It is not law, per se, but it is definately considered to be an authority and judges and attorneys will reference it when there are disputes.

The handbook is usually updated every two years.

TCNA - TCA Publications

I think the price went down from last year. The order form says $10. I think I paid $12 the last time.

http://www.tileusa.com/MasterWebForms/PDFs/LitOrderForm0908.pdf

Thanks mate, will have a look !

 

[White Room]

Just a link to help people know some idea whats the cost http://www.bsi-global.com/en/Shop/Publication-Detail/?pid=000000000030043518

 

[Rob Z]

Nick,

One thing that I like about the TCNA handbok is each method of installations is detailed with a very precise and labeled drawing (a section in architect's terms), with written description of all steps, materials, tolerances, etc. I have been able to use the details in my contracts rather than write out everything -I just say "Will install tile as per TCNA Spec # XYZ..." It is quite handy for the contractor, and very specific about the work that will be done.

 

[White Room]

That should be the standard here but payment is allways due for information, WHY

 

[Leatherface]

Just a link to help people know some idea whats the cost BS 5385-2:2006

What about :

BS 5385-1:1995 AND
BS 8000-11.1:1989 AND
BS 8000-11.2:1990 AND
Any others I may not be aware of, could be very costly to keep up to date

These all seem to pertain to different aspects of tiling, stone, working on buliding sites etc !
Actually how many are there ?

 

[Leatherface]

Found this on website :
"What is a standard?
A standard is a published document that contains a technical specification or other precise criteria designed to be used consistently as a rule, guideline, or definition. Standards help to make life simpler and to increase the reliability and the effectiveness of many goods and services we use. They are a summary of best practice and are created by bringing together the experience and expertise of all interested parties – the producers, sellers, buyers, users and regulators of a particular material, product, process or service.

Standards are designed for voluntary use and do not impose any regulations. However, laws and regulations may refer to certain standards and make compliance with them compulsory. For example, the physical characteristics and format of credit cards is set out in standard number BS EN ISO/IEC 7810:1996. Adhering to this standard means that the cards can be used worldwide.

Any standard is a collective work. Committees of manufacturers, users, research organizations, government departments and consumers work together to draw up standards that evolve to meet the demands of society and technology. British Standards staff act as secretaries to these committees and project manage the production of standards. As the world’s oldest National Standards Body, BSI has over 100 years’ experience of bringing together these often very varied viewpoints and facilitating consensus.

Electrotechnical standards are harmonized internationally by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) and the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC). The British Electrotechnical Committee (BEC), working closely with BSI ensures that the views of British industry are represented in Europe and worldwide.

To give you an idea of the scope of British Standards' work, around 2,000 new and revised standards area published each year and some 1,350 technical committees and working groups covering 20,000 standards are supported."
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Do not know what laws are actually in place to make British Standards legally binding to our industry, other than an advisable best practice.

 

[White Room]

I think Garythetiler put a post on this and it would cost about £750 to get all the booklets you need:yikes:

 

[Leatherface]

Me for one ain't gonna shell out that kind of money unless it becomes law !!
This then raises an earlier point that there is little use people quoting British Standards unless they are fully familiar with "ALL of them. To quote selective paragraphs is little use if you may not be fully adhering to ALL of the other ones, would still be negligent in terms in other areas !

 

[Fekin]

£750 to be told how to do your job propperly, or come on here and ask for free :hurray: