• UK Tiling Forum that lauched to the World. USA and UK Tile Fixers

    Welcome to the UK Tiling Forum for UK Tiling Advice, and US Tile Fixers Advice, whether wall tiling or floor tiling advice, by Tilers Forums. The collective tiling advice forum. TilersForums.co.uk now redirects to TilersForums.com.

Discuss Loose tiles & underfloor heating... in the UK Tiling Forum | Tiling Advice area at TilersForums. USA and UK Tiling Forum

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
Hi all

New to the forum so hello, please go gentle, and let me know if I'm posting in the wrong place?

We've recently had an extention, during which we also had the kitchen, utility and all three toilets refitted and retiled. The builders organised or 'did' all the work throught the build, which in hindsight was an error as we've since had a minor electrical fire, and two small leaks amongst other things :(

Latest issue is tiling. Tiles have been down 9 months without issue, but in the last two weeks we've had 5 tiles become loose, across 3 different rooms. Grouting is clearly breaking and coming out making them porous.

My main concern however is the underfloor heating. Presumably if the tile is moving, I'm risking the cables breaking?

Short of ripping it all up and starting again. Is there anything I can do? Unhelpfully we streached ourselves with the build, so with corrections to date funds are limited.

Upstairs floors are chipboard, followed by cables, screeding, adhesive, tiles. = 4 loose tiles, 3 of which in a group.

Downstairs is concrete, 6mm insulation boards, cables, screeding, adhesive, tiles. = 1 loose tile.

To my knowledge they used flexible adhesive etc.

Any advice would be very appreciated? Let me know if I've missed any details?

Thanks!
 
J

J Sid

could be a 101 different reasons, we need more info
what adhesive?
what primer?
what slc?
photos
straight onto chipboard is a no no
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
Morning!

Not much to see on photos but please find attached?

I've also attached pictures of adhesive & grout.

Primer was 'Prowarm underfloor heating primer' which looked, felt, smelt like PVA glue??

Not sure what Sls is?

I'm thinking getting builders back out not really an option 1) if they didn't do it right the 1st time why will they the 2nd /3rd? 2) unsure if they'd even come back again. I see that as just being stressful to be honest

Very disheartened and fed up with it all tbh.

Thanks
James

20190216_105013.jpg 20190216_105045.jpg 20190216_105112.jpg 20190216_110433.jpg 20190216_110347.jpg
 
J

J Sid

not come across that adhesive before, the spec says it's suitable for

Sealocrete Rapid Set Flexible Floor & Wall Tile Adhesive is a cement-based adhesive for use on concrete, concrete block, cement render and brick. It can also be used on plaster, plasterboard, chipboard, wood and existing glazed ceramic or vinyl tiles and is suitable for use with most domestic underfloor heating kits. For internal and external use.

big claims there :eek:
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
I'd get onto the builder and also talk to sealoctete direct and get them to come out

In reality do you think it would get me anywhere calling Sealoctete out? I don't think I'd get anything but stress with the builders?

So are you thinking it's the adhesive at fault? I was assuming it was due to being layed on boarding? Although that doesn't explain downstairs with the concrete flooring...

Other than ripping it all up and starting again do I have any alternatives?

Thanks
 
T

Time's Ran Out

You’ve asked and the replies seem to lead towards getting the builders back!
For whatever reason you seem reluctant to do so, but legally they have to have the opportunity to put it right.
Put everything in writing and keep copies, you will need it if action is required through the courts.
Your alternative is to live with it!
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
How was the heating turned on for the first time, and how long was it left before turning the heating on for the first time.

Thanks all, was just hoping there was an easier, less stressful fix...

I was advised to leave it fro 3 days, then start it at 16 degrees and only increase by 1 degree per day.

In reality, the one that is worst was left at least 2 weeks before switching on, and has only been used approx 10 times?
 
D

Dumbo

To be honest if he doesn't want the builders back and is willing to pay somebody else to sort it , I understand him not wanting the stress as for getting sealocrete out I expect they will find something wrong with the install or instalation techniques so that will be their get out of jail card .
 
W

Waluigi

I would look for a local Tiler(s) to come out and give you some idea of what needs doing to rectify the issues. Even if you have to pay him to give you a quote or even a report on why he thinks it’s failed.

Then get the builders back out and ask them what they plan to do about the issues.

If the advise between the Tiler and the Builders doesn’t tally up then I’d go back to the builders and explain what the professional Tilers suggest.
 
O

Old Mod

Although the repair of your floors is the most important issue to be dealt with here, there is one thing that you’ve described that concerns me a little.
You’ve mentioned that
“In reality, the one that is worst was left at least 2 weeks before switching on, and has only been used approx 10 times?”
The reason that you have to wait before turning the heating on is to allow the adhesives to cure fully before heating, and 3 days is insufficient.
I appreciate you waited two weeks for the worst floor, but I instruct clients to wait 28 days, that’s the length of time it can take for cement based products to cure fully.
In fact adhesive doesn’t achieve its maximum bond strength until after 28 days.
Secondly, your method of operation, yes you were instructed to increase the temperature slowly at a rate of 1 degree a day, (which would be a good method for the first heating cycle,) but it should also be turned off in the same manor to complete the first cycle, before day to day use
However, was it explained to you that every time you turn the heating on and off, it should ALWAYS be done gradually?
There’s no need for it to be done in 1 degree increments after the first commissioning, but it should be done over a couple of days.
And the reasoning behind it is that you’re trying to prevent ‘thermal shock’ within the adhesive.
Thermal shock can happen at anytime!
It’s not unique to the first operation.
So if for example the way you use it is to leave it at operating temp on the thermostat and just switch it on via the fuse spur, it means it’s going from cold to operating temp straight away, or vice versa, this can possibly lead to thermal shock within the adhesive, which in turn can cause partial or catastrophic failure.
Just something to be aware of.
When the tiles are lifted and before they are
re-instated, look at the adhesive beneath them, typically thermal shock presents as ‘crazy paving’ or multiple micro cracks in the adhesive.
 
Reaction score
61
It looks like you have cranked up the heat too soon,you need to raise the temp over at least a period of 3 days to 7 presuming the ambient temp is 10 plus degrees before you start.
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
So that may be the case in the main bathroom as it's only been used a few times (although not at all in the last 2 months).

But the kitchen and ensuite have been built up per recommendations and kept at 22 degrees morning and night whilst we're home and allowed to drop to 18 during night / 20 day.

Also, at no stage had I been told that underfloor heating had to be kept on continuously?? Seem a bit extreme?
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
Also, never been used but the thermostat (Warmup 4IE) offers geo tracking which will switch your floors off if you leave the house, and back on when you return home? Surely that would invalidate your gradual warmup routine?
 
J

J Sid

Also, never been used but the thermostat (Warmup 4IE) offers geo tracking which will switch your floors off if you leave the house, and back on when you return home? Surely that would invalidate your gradual warmup routine?

I pretty sure the warmup4IE will switch it to a lower temp, say 12c or whatever you decide rather the off.
why would you want to turn it right off, not an efficient way to run ufh.
 

CJ

TF
Supporter
Arms
Reaction score
449
You need to get the builders back first of all, how did they lay over the cables........Dot/dab??

You will also find it difficult to get another tiler to rectify the problem, as most of us do not like repairing other people’s work........especially not know it all/jack of all trades (master of none) builders.
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
Sorry, let's start again none of them have ever been powered down. I just mean the temperature has been at its fallback temperature of 16 degrees (?). Floor always reads around 18 during this time presumably due to the central heating in the house. When I say on, I mean set to usually 22, sometimes 24 to give a to touch feel underneath.
 
G

GoneGuy

Have you tried tapping the tiles to see if they sound hollow? The builders might have dot and dabbed them and created hollow spots
 
Reaction score
130
This is what it says on the bag , so by going to sealocrete all they will do is throw it back on the builder who did the job.
Sealocrete Rapid Set Flexible Floor & Wall Tile Adhesive is a cement-based adhesive for use on concrete, concrete block, cement render and brick. It can also be used on plaster, plasterboard, chipboard, wood and existing glazed ceramic or vinyl tiles and is suitable for use with most domestic underfloor heating kits. For internal and external use.
I know you don't want to get the builder back, but why pay out you hard earned cash to put something right that should been done right on the first time of asking.
If they refuse to make good mistakes seriously think about taking legal advice on the matter.
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
Thanks all. I called the builder this morning, he's said he'll come and take a look.
He said the only time he'd seen it before was when moisture got into the chipboard...

Thinking about it, my mother in law showered with the shower door open (as you do) about a month ago in the room adjacent. At the time we ended up with water stains on the ceiling below. The tiles next to the flooded shower are fine, but it is the other side of the wall that they are all lifting so may be related? :(

Although that doesn't explain the ones in the kitchen ...
 
J

J Sid

evo-stik recommends priming with PVA

Underfloor Heating: 8. If using over underfloor heating elements, apply the adhesive according to the manufacturer’s instructions, leaving the correct length of time between laying the underfloor heating and applying the adhesive. Heating systems must be switched off for at least 48 hours before and after tiling.

9. Dusty or very porous surfaces should be primed with 1 part EVO-STIK Evo-Bond PVA to 4 parts water by volume and allow to dry prior to tiling. For wooden floors only prime if absolutelynecessary as it may reduce the porosity of the floor and increase the drying time of the adhesive.
 
OP
J

JMRolfe

TF
Reaction score
3
That floor was primed with the Prowarm primer, which in felt, smelt, looked like PVA.

It ended up having two coats as the kitchen didn't require it (due to insulation boards) so I had loads of it kicking around and I was home alone that week trying to make myself useful.
 
Reaction score
130
PVA is what kids at school ,you can peel it off your hands when it drys ,the best primers are either SBR or acrylic ones when tiling
 

Reply to Loose tiles & underfloor heating... in the UK Tiling Forum | Tiling Advice area at TilersForums.com

Or checkout our tile training advice or the Tile Standards

This website is hosted and managed by www.untoldmedia.co.uk. Creating content since 2001.

Replies you've not seen

UK Tiling Forum Stats

Threads
66,583
Messages
866,613
Members
9,500
Latest member
Dazzer
Top