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  1. ismoat Building Products

Discuss Loose floor tiles on Ditramat in the Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.co.uk.

  1. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    Newbie poster here, in search of advice. We had an extension built nearly 3 years ago, and a tiled floor with UFH throught the ground floor. I’m happy that both the builder and tiler knew what they were doing, and the overall quality of work is excellent, however we have a few loose floor tiles and if I describe the way they were laid and the layers of flooring they’re on, I’m hoping you kind folks can give me some guidance as to how best to fix them.

    The main room (lounge) is approx. 7m x 7m, and half the room is a new extension with a suspended concrete block and beam floor, then the following layers:

    Ecotherm/Celotex board (100mm I assume)
    UFH pipes on top of Celotex (fixed to 5mm building mesh)
    Around 3 inches of screed on top.

    After about 2 weeks drying, Ditra Mat 25 was fixed to the screed throughout the ground floor. Not sure what adhesive was used, from looking at photos it might have been a mix of Ceresit CT60 acrylic plaster with SBR Bonding Primer.

    This was left for 6 weeks before tiler arrived. Tiler then laid a thin layer of Instarmac UltraTile Floor Leveller on top of the Ditra Mat, and then tiled onto that using UltraTile Proflex SP adhesive. The tiles are 40x40cm vitrified.

    The loose tiles are mainly around the edges, there are probably a dozen or so that sound loose (hollow), but out of the 80+ sqM of tiles that we had laid that’s a pretty good number I’d say. Problem is several are in areas of foot traffic near doors, and they are now clicking as we walk on them, so I assume it will only get worse unless we do something.

    I tried a “Shalex Stickit Tile Repair Kit” from Amazon, which squirts thin glue into tiny holes drilled into the grout, but the whole bottle went down around one tile and didn’t make a difference.

    I have now bought some tubes of Fix-A-Floor Repair Adhesive (Fix-a-Floor | Home - http://www.fixafloor.co.uk/) but before I try squirting this into the grout gaps, I thought I’d ask for advice. What I don’t know, is which of the above layers are more likely to have come apart. Is the failure more likely to be between:

    Tile/Tile adhesive
    Tile adhesive/levelling compound
    Levelling compound/Ditra mat
    Ditra mat/adhesive to screed

    There’s obviously no point in me squirting glue where it’s less likely to be needed, so all suggestions welcome. Or should these tiles be fully lifted and reseated? In which case, any volunteers?
     
  2. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    Errrrm.... Ditra was stuck down with decorative plaster?
    Are it sure it was CT60?
    They have adhesives for installing eps boards, but that isn’t CT60.
    Typically Ditra will be adhered using either tile adhesive or an acrylic type, such as Ardex AF200.

    If the tiles are clicking underfoot, it would suggest they’ve debonded from the Ditra, however, the only true way to tell is by removing tiles in an area that is effected but will not be obtrusive, until it can be remedied.
    Also, Schluter do not advocate the use of levelling compound, over their products.
    Can I safely assume there are no expansion joints anywhere?
    You mentioned problem areas being through doorways, as a bare minimum with a heated floor, there should be expansion joints trough them. No two rooms or hallways are the same temp, necessitating the need for expansion joints through doorways.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    Forget the CT60, I took hundreds of photos at the time, saw a tub of CT60 in a few photos and jumped to the wrong conclusion. There was all sorts of other work going on. I’ve since seen photos of bags of tile adhesive so I think we can safely assume they used the right stuff to fix the Ditra.
     
  4. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    Well with that argument not withstanding, the rest still applies.
     
  5. Localtiler

    Localtiler Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Was there any expansion gap left to the skirting or wall ? Door frame ? Or were they cut tight?

    I’m afraid these wonder cures won’t work for you.
     
  6. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    North East England
    Can you confirm it was Ditra used and not something similar ie ‘hoover’ as a make not the appliance type.
     
  7. wrighty

    wrighty Professional Tiler

    Location:
    Northumberland
    So,why was the Ditra fitted after 2 weeks?
    And left for a further 6 weeks before the tiler arrived?
    Was the person to fit the Ditra not a tiler?
    And where does the commissioning of the UFH come in the timescale?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Adey1980

    Adey1980 Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Caerphilly
    Was the ufh commissioned before sutra was fitted?
    As there was a big time gap between the Dj tea and tiler was the floor kept clean and dry.
    Maybe the tiler dot and dabbed the edge tiles
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  9. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    You wanna lay off the pop Adey haha
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  10. Adey1980

    Adey1980 Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Caerphilly
    Oh dear, well it makes sense to me o_O
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    Get there in the end did you Paul @pdc@pdc :p
     
  12. pdc

    pdc Speling & grammer specialyst Professional Tiler

    Stoopid little buttons after a night out is never a good combination..
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  13. Andy Allen

    Andy Allen Metro specialist & forum entertainer! Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    Gloucester
    Why put self leveller over the decoupler..?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Localtiler

    Localtiler Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Tel, where art thou ?
     
  15. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    Genuine Ditra mat, see photo. Builder refused to use anything cheaper when I fainted at the cost. Photo also shows location of loose tiles. I'm not convinced re expansion joints, the tiler said he had tiled far larger areas than this (on UFH) without. Plus, tiles in the main hallway, kitchen and doorways are fine. Its just round the rear edge near the patio doors that they are hollow and clicky in places. Expansion gaps were left at all edges, then a tiled skirting strip above with silicone beading between, final photo also attached.

    P1120118.JPG P1120330.JPG
     
  16. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    I'm in Watford, Herts.
     
  17. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    Tiling was finished in May 2015, UFH wasn’t commissioned until July. Plumber and builder were adamant that it shouldn’t be turned on for many weeks, and then a gradual build up. Luckily it was summer:)
     
  18. Terry Rush

    Terry Rush Active Member

    Location:
    Watford
    As I’ve said, I’m happy that the builder, plumber and tiler knew what they were doing. The main question raised seems to be over the latex on the Ditra before tiling, which the tiler said he normally did. I’m hoping therefore that you guys don’t try to convince me that I’m sitting on a ticking time bomb. I guess I’m really after opinions as to whether it’s worth trying the Fix-A-Floor Repair Adhesive. It really is only a few tiles loose, out of an 82 sq M floor.
     
  19. pdc

    pdc Speling & grammer specialyst Professional Tiler

    Take up one of the loose tiles and see what has failed, adhesive to tile or adhesive to SLC.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. jcrtiling

    jcrtiling Professional Tiler TTA Member Top Contributor

    Location:
    Salisbury
    I have seen a video by ardex using arditex na levelling compound over the top of ditra matting i have been looking for it on you tube this morning but cant find it .
     
  21. wrighty

    wrighty Professional Tiler

    Location:
    Northumberland
    The builder and the plumber are correct in saying the UFH shouldn't be turned on for many weeks,but the heating needs to be commissioned(slowly up to operating temperature and back down again) before any tiling commences
     
  22. Andy Allen

    Andy Allen Metro specialist & forum entertainer! Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    Gloucester
    What has the.. tiler / builder / plumber... Said about the issues...?
     
  23. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    Be surprised if you did Jerry, Schluter no longer advocate the use of latex over their products, Ditra E included.
     
  24. jcrtiling

    jcrtiling Professional Tiler TTA Member Top Contributor

    Location:
    Salisbury
    Honest I did but it was a ardex video and even had with their technical rep about it who called me a clever bunny when I said hat you would be creating a shear point by latexing first . But maybe I can't find it because schluter asked them to take it down
     
  25. aytiling

    aytiling Professional Tiler

    Location:
    Nottingham
    This is from Schluter
    "The recommendation of 28 days is to allow for movement and shrinkage to take place in the green screed. But using Schlüter®-DITRA 25 actually means you can get on to the screed much earlier. Depending on the weather and time of year it could be as little as a couple of days. Basically, you're looking at being able to apply the membrane as soon as the screed can support weight. If you can walk on the screed and your shoe doesn't leave an impression in it, you can install the membrane and tile immediately afterwards. The membrane actually slows down the drying process of the screed, minimizing shrinkage and eliminating most of the cracking which could occur. Also -- especially over floating type screeds where you've got insulation -- it'll minimize the curling effect of the screed, so all in all, using Schlüter®-DITRA 25 on a green screed not only protects the tiles, but gives you a better screed as well. And if you can get off site earlier, because you don't need to wait 28 days before tiling."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Localtiler

    Localtiler Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    What’s recommended to stick it down with after a few days ?
     
  27. wrighty

    wrighty Professional Tiler

    Location:
    Northumberland
    I see what your saying,but .......why put the Ditra down after 2 weeks and then not tile it for a further 6 weeks when it could have been drying naturally....unhindered by the layer of Ditra.
    Is the advice you have quoted from Schulter....if the screed does not have UFH?
     
  28. Localtiler

    Localtiler Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I really don’t think the fact the ditra went down and then it wasn’t tiled straight away makes any difference, once the ditra is down, the tiles are irrelevant to the screed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. 3_fall

    3_fall Administrator. Staff Member Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    SW London
    Covering a screed with Ditra actually aids it’s drying,
    not in the speed but actually slows it down, therefore far less likely to crack or curl.
    Screeds should be covered in the same way as a concrete slab, but they very rarely are.
     
  30. impish

    impish Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler Top Contributor

    Location:
    Lancashire
    I'm going to take a stab and simply say he's spot fixed at the edges. Rushing to get done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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