why i never charge a day rate unless ripping up a floor

[jonnyc]

Picking up from deanos thread about fast tiling , I would like to set out my stance on costing jobs.
I have had a tiling/stone fixing business for 28 odd years.
i have never given a day rate for a single fixing job in that time.
the only time i have given a day rate is when i am asked to dig up an existing floor and make good. this a complete unknown
there have been numerous times when i am presented with a new product albeit stone /mosaic or porcelain and it gets more complicated every year .
but if my company is to be believed as a top fixer company then i should be able to adapt.
if you have to give a day rate you are simply not up to the job.
the only job i have not quoted for to date is a flying stone staircase but i have now seen a so called pro make a balls up and it is really easy if you think about it.
as we get older we lose the balls we had for a job i think but to suggest to a client that you have to charge a day rate for proposed work only suggests that you are not experienced enough to take job on.
you may suggest that the walls were not good for laying mosaics and how could you know what you were going to recieve . well if you have worked for the contractor before you know well what you need to do.
regarding adhesive we solid bed stone or porcelain and if i allow 2.25 sq mts per 20 kg bag tilemaster staeflex there are no surprises.
quite possible that when my clients should they so wish work out how much labour has cost a day they get a shock but in their world they know that they have have got a good job for a fraction of a the hourly rate they may charge in their own profession.
i dont think i have ever lost a client because of cost but i have saved myself so much grief by not charging a day rate .

 

[Ian]

An interesting point Jonny but, what if you feel you are capable of doing the job but have no idea how long it will take as you haven't done anything similar before? It's not very often I do ask to be put on a day rate, in fact I can't remember the last time I was on a day rate but, every now and again I come up against a job that I genuinely can't give a timescale on, I'll have an educated guess but, like to cover myself. Plus there are always jobs that you get held up on due to other trades missing deadlines, is it fair that you or I should lose time/money due to this?

 

[jonnyc]

An interesting point Jonny but, what if you feel you are capable of doing the job but have no idea how long it will take as you haven't done anything similar before? It's not very often I do ask to be put on a day rate, in fact I can't remember the last time I was on a day rate but, every now and again I come up against a job that I genuinely can't give a timescale on, I'll have an educated guess but, like to cover myself. Plus there are always jobs that you get held up on due to other trades missing deadlines, is it fair that you or I should lose time/money due to this?

bri the last part about being held up i see as a different issue.
i have a standard template that i could show on here that covers a lot of basic things like this.
that said i dont think i have ever been paid for a job being delayed and us being out of work.
in this country unfortunately it is a given that delays occur and i call every job booked three months ahead every week to check on progress. this helps me alot.I never assume the date i was given a month ago stands by the week.I actually go to site evry week as well but i understand that not everyone has time to do this .

 

[jonnyc]

sorry bri back to first point you made.
if you think you can do it just go for it.
its not fair to your client to charge a day rate .
i have a job at the moment where i will lose money on two aspects of the job and and make a good earn on two others . this is life. i gave up worrying about this 20 years ago .
obviously if you cost something you have never done before wrong time after time you havea problem.
but i am being really honest here and i started as the very first FIRED EARTH with a mate progressed through to stone and if i shied away from pricing jobs i knew nothing about i would never have had the tiling adventure i have had to date

 

[Ian]

It's a great topic, I always give a price based on a day rate, so if I want £100 per day and I know the job will take 5 days, I quote £500, the customer will not know I have priced it like this as they have a job price. If I get it done in 4 days then that's a bonus, if it takes 6 days, I know for the future if a similar job comes up. Pricing and job timescales are one of the hardest parts of being a tiler, especially when new to the trade.

 

[widler]

Im happy with both, price is better cos you will work over to get it done quicker , but to be honest,in domestic work it all works out around about the same.
Only way you make money is by employing, ive got my lads on pricework (plastering per m2) working away, i make a wage and they make a very good few quid .

 

[jonnyc]

It's a great topic, I always give a price based on a day rate, so if I want £100 per day and I know the job will take 5 days, I quote £500, the customer will not know I have priced it like this as they have a job price. If I get it done in 4 days then that's a bonus, if it takes 6 days, I know for the future if a similar job comes up. Pricing and job timescales are one of the hardest parts of being a tiler, especially when new to the trade.

yes bri i think that we all price a job to cover at very least the minimum day rate we want to achieve except in an upmarket when you might be seduced to charge more.
as a company i need to to take in further consideration what my employes cost me per day .
this averages out at £ 200 per day befoe i earn my first pence.

 

[jonnyc]

i have a couple of bug bears and i state this now in relation stone fixing.
EXAMPLE:Turned up today and got a morrocan distressed stone to fix.
lovely stone . varies between 18 and 22mm .
am i bothered ? absolutely not
never get a really good level screed so can adjust and having thinnwer and thicker stones just makes fixing easier.
any fixer that says he can not cope with varying thickness of stone should stick to ceramics

 

[jonnyc]

ok so this could be interesting

 

[Ian]

Have you had an experience of this today Jonny? Did one of your fixers want a day rate as the job was awkward? Or is this just a general thing?

 

[jonnyc]

no .the point i am making is that natural stone can vary 5mm but i dont give a hoot,
we solid bed every piece . any fixer that expects even stone thickness and thinkdks he can just notch should stick to ceramics

 

[CJ]

Ripping off old tiles floor & wall is always an unknown..........so that HAS to be on day rate. So I tell customers just that........it could take a day......or a week.

 

[Ian]

no .the point i am making is that natural stone can vary 5mm but i dont give a hoot,
we solid bed every piece . any fixer that expects even stone thickness and thinkdks he can just notch should stick to ceramics

Gotcha, I agree, I like the variation that comes with fixing stone. A good point to be made here in relation to the pricing is, check your material before quoting. Another thing that comes with experience.

 

[Spud]

Jonny many years ago I worked for a marble fixer we fitted all types of marble , granite and limestone, when the company he subbed the work from we're looking for stone fixers they would advertise in the evening standard the advert would always say, marble fixers, stone masons and mason paviours req. ceramic tilers need not apply. The boss of the company did not consider tilers to have the knowledge or ability to fix stone correctly
It was classed as 2 completely separate trades back then but these days I think there is a massive cross over between them with the large format porcelain and natural stone products being sold in the same outlets these days

 

[Peter]

Never given an unlimited 'day rate' where I don't know how long it'll take. Would look very bad imo saying "I'm *** a day but I'm not sure how long it'll take". Usually when pricing a job I will measure up and work out how long it'll take vs the meters, and give a finished price. Usually the meterage and dayrate works out about the same, apart from on big floors where I can always pull in a better price compared to a bathroom. If there are unknown factors, I will give a best case and worse case scenario price eg, standard tile removal only in a bathroom and complete reboard. Customers are always fine with this as they know their parameters, and if I make a balls of pricing it then I will take the hit myself.

Still get caught out the odd time but in 95% of jobs I will be able to tell how long it'll take me and if I finish before that then it's a bonus. To be honest I don't like giving my 'daily rate' to customers as they may think it's too high for a lowly tradesman, a fixed all in price for labour and a separate price for materials seems to work best.

I have a base line and as long as I meet that every week I'm happy. Eg, had 120m in a house last week. Had given the same price per meter for bathrooms and floor. They changed the tile for the bathrooms to a 8x4 ceramic (showers only and 600x300 floor tile) and we were running at a bit of a loss due to the slowness of fixing the wall tiles. Wasn't worried as the 90m very flat floor downstairs would swing it back again. I could have been grumpy and told him we needed more money for the walls but there's no point being greedy, as at the end of the day there was still a good wage in the job overall.

 

[charlie1]

I don't see a problem charging a day rate as long as you tell the customer how many days it 'should' take you... Then if it drags on longer then your either incompetent or you have not taken everything in to consideration before start of job, neither should be funded by the customer

 

[Andy Allen]

I never give a day rate because I like to come and go as I please. Don't get me wrong i put in a good shift but if I want to finish at 3pm then I can as it's costing the customer no more and no less. On a day rate you would be obligated to work a full day or the customer wouldn't be to happy. .

 

[jonnyc]

I don't see a problem charging a day rate as long as you tell the customer how many days it 'should' take you... Then if it drags on longer then your either incompetent or you have not taken everything in to consideration before start of job, neither should be funded by the customer

then thus is a price charlie not a day rate!!

 

[Andy Allen]

Spot on jonny a day rate is x amount of pounds per day till jobs finished. Telling a customer it's x amount of pounds per day and it should take 5 days is a price. Cause you try getting more than 5 days money out of them.....lol

 

[jonnyc]

Have you had an experience of this today Jonny? Did one of your fixers want a day rate as the job was awkward? Or is this just a general thing?

no bri my guys are employees .i was just thinking about the number of times stone suppliers tell me a tiler has been on the phone saying the tiles arent same thickness and therefore no good and will take them more time to fix. these are the type of fixers who muck the jobs up and then i have to go round and see client for stone company .i see plenty of jobs done by rogue stone fixers!!

 

[peteablard]

I never give a day rate because I like to come and go as I please. Don't get me wrong i put in a good shift but if I want to finish at 3pm then I can as it's costing the customer no more and no less. On a day rate you would be obligated to work a full day or the customer wouldn't be to happy. .

I'm exactly the same Andy, you don't have to justify your time keeping to anyone. Having said that I generally do more hours on site than any other trade anyway!

 

[The D]

i have a couple of bug bears and i state this now in relation stone fixing.
EXAMPLE:Turned up today and got a morrocan distressed stone to fix.
lovely stone . varies between 18 and 22mm .
am i bothered ? absolutely not
never get a really good level screed so can adjust and having thinnwer and thicker stones just makes fixing easier.
any fixer that says he can not cope with varying thickness of stone should stick to ceramics

have to agree with you on that m8. those sorts of tolerances put me right out side of my comfort zone and if you do not think you can make a job of it you should walk away and do something you are more comfortable doing. so my hat is off to you and anyone else that can work with that type of material.

 

[Peter]

What does everyone do if they're a couple (less than a box) tiles short through a shop/customers measurements? Come back free of charge or add extra for havikg to come back?

 

[Spud]

What does everyone do if they're a couple (less than a box) tiles short through a shop/customers measurements? Come back free of charge or add extra for havikg to come back?

if i havent supplied them and they run short they are paying for a return visit , I have this in my terms and conditons and always remind them in the scope of works to provide enough tiles plus a percentage wastage

 

[jonnyc]

have to agree with you on that m8. those sorts of tolerances put me right out side of my comfort zone and if you do not think you can make a job of it you should walk away and do something you are more comfortable doing. so my hat is off to you and anyone else that can work with that type of material.

Surprised to hear this from you Deano.
Unless you are winding me up , I know you could adapt very easily but why should you if you have plenty of work in your normal comfort zone.
gary touched on the subject earlier .
I have never used a notch on stone or rectified porcelain floor .
i may not be right on how I bed tiles but I do know that I get right coverage .

 

[The D]

Surprised to hear this from you Deano.
Unless you are winding me up , I know you could adapt very easily but why should you if you have plenty of work in your normal comfort zone.
gary touched on the subject earlier .
I have never used a notch on stone or rectified porcelain floor .
i may not be right on how I bed tiles but I do know that I get right coverage .

I'm not winding you up at all m8 i have had my fingers burned with this type of stone as i think you know. At the end of the day i am a tiler not a stone mason give me a tile big or small and i will stick it to the wall or the floor. but this stone that is all thicknesses shapes and sizes is not my idea of fun so i am absolutely with you tilers should stick to tiling.

 

[jonnyc]

I'm not winding you up at all m8 i have had my fingers burned with this type of stone as i think you know. At the end of the day i am a tiler not a stone mason give me a tile big or small and i will stick it to the wall or the floor. but this stone that is all thicknesses shapes and sizes is not my idea of fun so i am absolutely with you tilers should stick to tiling.

Deano I really appreciate your comments .i think we understand each other now.

 

[Peter]

I have never used a notch on stone or rectified porcelain floor .
i may not be right on how I bed tiles but I do know that I get right coverage .

Interesting point. If you don't mind me asking, what's your method? I suppose with different thickness it's not in your interest to use a standard notch.

Do you pour a continuous bed and beat to the same level?

 

[Stef]

What does everyone do if they're a couple (less than a box) tiles short through a shop/customers measurements? Come back free of charge or add extra for havikg to come back?

Depends on the customer Peter, if you are on a good day with them then I would take the hit, if they are a bit of an arse then I would charge, every job is different in my eyes.

 

[Perry]

Johnny did we go to the same school ? When we started tiling lol or was because we started in the fired earth days.