tiling on no more ply

[marionmckay]

Hi
I need to create a small stand up section to fit round an exposed pipe chase in utility room approx. 300mm x 150mm
First attempt was to stick tiles to ply which all fell off. I then read somewhere that you can't stick tiles to ply
2nd attempt purchased the right backing in tile shop i.e. no more ply.. glued tiles on but again most have fell off
3rd attempt glued tiles to , no more ply' laid it face down on a flat surface . On standing it up in position - tiles have fallen off again
the adhesive i'm using is from tile it all called Ball ready mix
Arghhh!!!!..... what's going on ?
I have just completed a full shower enclosure, without any problems
Anyone any ideas ?
many thanks
marion

 

[Dan]

Sorry to laugh but the way you wrote it had me in stitches.

What adhesive are you using?

 

[Dougs Third Go]

have your tiles got dusty on the backs?

 

[marionmckay]

Sorry to laugh but the way you wrote it had me in stitches.

What adhesive are you using?

Well thanks Dan, glad to be amusing but this is driving me mad its a stupid little upstand - I just don't know what's going on. There must be a pro in here that knows
adhesive is Bal ready mix not cheap and nasty stuff

 

[marionmckay]

have your tiles got dusty on the backs?

Hi doug, nope! straight out the box new......

 

[Dan]

Well thanks Dan, glad to be amusing but this is driving me mad its a stupid little upstand - I just don't know what's going on. There must be a pro in here that knows
adhesive is Bal ready mix not cheap and nasty stuff

You wont be able to tile ply with dispersion adhesive.

You should have asked on here maybe before the first time they fell off, but then after the second maybe third.

And if you thought gravity was on your side, you're wrong.

You can tile to ply with the right adhesive.

Let's get this right though now.

What tiles are they?
What do we have? No more ply, is it fresh now or is adhesive all over it?

 

[Dougs Third Go]

Hi doug, nope! straight out the box new......

it's no guarantee that they've not been packed with dusty backs though Marion, give 'em a wipe off with a damp sponge first on next attempt,,oh and ditch the ready mixed porridge

 

[SJPurdy]

There is something more wrong here. Its just a small pipe boxing and even ready mix should fix to that if it is primed first, assuming that it is thick enough ply and rigidly fixed to stop flexing. The no more ply is very absorbent and so again if this is not primed it will just suck the moisture out of ready mix resulting in a fail (its not intended for readymix really, but cement based addy and even then should be primed and rigidly fixed).

Is it the adhesive to tile or the adhesive to substrate bond that is failing?

 

[marionmckay]

The tiles are wall tiles 8m however the box is Turkish and that's about the info we can understand
We got them for tops tiles
Adhesive is Bal grip + fibre enchanced ready mix
the adhesive stays mostly on the backing when they fall off. BTW a couple of the tiles have remained in place!!
The backing is very sound and rigid
I thought this was the purpose of 'no more ply' that it didn't have to be primed?
we are now about to try using plasterboard for the backing
should we use this ready mix adhesive or we have some floor tile powder that we could mix up

 

[Dan]

Can you take a picture of the back of the tiles for us?

 

[SJPurdy]

Adhesive is Bal grip + fibre enchanced ready mix
the adhesive stays mostly on the backing when they fall off. BTW a couple of the tiles have remained in place!!

That indicates that the backing isn't the problem (as you also say it is rigid). It could be as suggested dust on the back of the tiles, or the surface of the adhesive air drying before the tile is positioned (ie taking to long between spreading and positioning the tile) - so wipe back of tiles, only spread the adhesive (notched trowel when ready) and back butter the tiles with adhesive as well before fixing.
Also check you adhesive, it should be a nice workable paste. If it is very stiff it may not be wetting/grabbing the tiles when you position them suggesting to me it may be old or faulty.

 

[SJPurdy]

I thought this was the purpose of 'no more ply' that it didn't have to be primed?
we are now about to try using plasterboard for the backing
should we use this ready mix adhesive or we have some floor tile powder that we could mix up

It is recommended to prime with SBR to improve adhesion (I always do because I don't want to take any risks that may affect my professional reputation!) but as above it is not this bond failing.
If it is grey cement based adhesive then it may stain through a light coloured ceramic wall tile so then you have another risk.

Its only 300 x 150mm. How many tiles are there? what is there size? (you implied a couple stayed in place but most fell off) What type of tiles (ceramic, porcelain, glass, stone, resin backed?). We want to help, this should be easy, but I'm just missing something!

 

[Dan]

How much adhesive are you putting on? What notched style trowel are you using?

 

[marionmckay]

Hi all
Wey hey!! we have adhesion and even in an upright position
Went back to basics and cut plasterboard made sure we cleaned the back of the tile. Still used the Bal - success !
I have no idea what all that was about but its worked this time
It is a L shaped upstand and ceramic tiles
The tiles at the side stuck in was the larger ones at the front that didn’t. We used the same tools that we used for the shower room and the same amount of Bal
There has been some great suggestions here for the future especially the staining of tiles with grey cement
Can I ask what is cement based addy ?
many thanks for all your help
PS...... Ha Ha!! i'm always boasting to folks when I get my birthday wishes email from the tilers forums - they think i'm sad

regards to all

 

[Dan]

Cement-based addy, or adhesive, is a bag of adhesive that's largely cement with additives and colourings in it.

The other type, dispersion adhesive, is a bucket, which cures or sets by the water evaporating out of it.

You tend to find with the latter, that if you don't stick a tile to it quickly, it'll skin over like custard does, and then your tiles stick to the skin and not the actual adhesive. So they'll fall off.

Cement-based adhesives cure by way of a chemical reaction. So it can still cure when wet. And will bond while curing. And then the water evaporating out of it is just a process that happens but doesn't have much of an effect to the actual bonding.

 

[marionmckay]

Hi all
Wey hey!! we have adhesion and even in an upright position
Went back to basics and cut plasterboard made sure we cleaned the back of the tile. Still used the Bal - success !
I have no idea what all that was about but its worked this time
It is a L shaped upstand and ceramic tiles
The tiles at the side stuck in was the larger ones at the front that didn’t. We used the same tools that we used for the shower room and the same amount of Bal
There has been some great suggestions here for the future especially the staining of tiles with grey cement
Can I ask what is cement based addy ?
many thanks for all your help
PS...... Ha Ha!! i'm always boasting to folks when I get my birthday wishes email from the tilers forums - they think i'm sad

regards to all

 

[marionmckay]

so when should you use one type as opposed to the other? or is it really just preference?

 

[Dougs Third Go]

so when should you use one type as opposed to the other? or is it really just preference?

dispersion's ok(ish) for the likes of a kitchen splashback with ceramic tiles that are not large format.Personally I try and steer away from the stuff although the buckets can come in handy.

 

[Dan]

dispersion's ok(ish) for the likes of a kitchen splashback with ceramic tiles that are not large format.Personally I try and steer away from the stuff although the buckets can come in handy.

I used to love the buckets! Had 20 or so at times.

 

[Spare Tool]

I used to love the buckets! Had 20 or so at times.

Used to do a lot of commercial work fixing 6x6 whites in gyms, sometimes would clean and take home 50 buckets off 1 job, ain't done that work for a couple of years, bet I'm down to my last 10 buckets in the shed, where do they all go..

 

[Old Mod]

Used to do a lot of commercial work fixing 6x6 whites in gyms, sometimes would clean and take home 50 buckets off 1 job, ain't done that work for a couple of years, bet I'm down to my last 10 buckets in the shed, where do they all go..

Boilies!

 

[Spare Tool]

Boilies!

Hahaha...yeah probably, went through 10kg of em on my last trip..didn't know you knew about carp fishing, by the way tho this is seriously off topic

 

[Old Mod]

Hahaha...yeah probably, went through 10kg of em on my last trip..didn't know you knew about carp fishing, by the way tho this is seriously off topic

Shhhhh! ......thought I heard something!!!!!
Nah s'alright, must have been wind!

 

[Spare Tool]

....."offff toppppppppic" hmmm sounds like wind if you say it with a lishp