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Discuss Tiles de-bonding from new house in the UK Tiling Forum | Tiling Advice area at TilersForums. USA and UK Tiling Forum

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Hi there.

Has any seen an issue with tiles that de_bonded or became loose?
We moved into a new build. Floor base was not powerfloated (which is better for tiling). Tiler used Larsen Primer, & Larsen flexible rapid adhesive to tile ground floor with 75x75 porcelain tiles. 6weeks later we could hear a hollow sound..from every tile. We called the builder and tiler, they removed a tile to see underneath. The adhesive was stuck to the tile, and primer to the adhesive so none to the ground...is this normal? Also there was a strong Solvent smell when we lifted the tile! Has anyone seen this? The tiler seem suprised. Would the Primer used have contributed to the issue...can it be contaminated or "go-off"??

We are now in a situation where the builder and tiler think they are not at fault, either do Larsens. But one thing for certain it is not me!

Can anyone help??
 
D

Dumbo

Have you had a rep out from Larsen to look at the job . Do you know what primer was used . Are you saying the primer has come up with the tile if so is there dust or cement stuck to the primer .
 
O

Old Mod

Does it have ufh, and do you know exactly what type of screed you have?
It’s unlikely to be the adhesive used.
 
OP
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Have you had a rep out from Larsen to look at the job . Do you know what primer was used . Are you saying the primer has come up with the tile if so is there dust or cement stuck to the primer .

Yes we had the Larsen Rep out when we took up the tile. They were also concerned about the Solvent smell and said that their primer&adhesive should not smell Solvent. Larsen also to a sample but their testing is really a Look & Feel test, not worth much to be honest. It was Acrylic Primer used. When they took up the tile they could see the primer stuck to the adhesive, it was a clean de-bond with no dust or cement.

I am wondering if the primer was Off, would it be the Solvent smell?
 
O

Old Mod

Yes we have UFH with 10mm screed


10mm screed? Unlikely.

Is your ufh wet or electric?
Anhydride screeds are 40-45mm min with ufh.
And sand and cement screeds with ufh should be 60ish
Are sure, firstly on depth, and secondly is it the actual screed you’re talking about or is it a latex covering over the screed.
 

Chalker

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10mm screed? Unlikely.

Is your ufh wet or electric?
Anhydride screeds are 40-45mm min with ufh.
And sand and cement screeds with ufh should be 60ish
Are sure, firstly on depth, and secondly is it the actual screed you’re talking about or is it a latex covering over the screed.
10mm could be nu-heat lopro.
If it is, it’s covered in fibre reinforced self levelling.
 
O

Old Mod

10mm could be nu-heat lopro.
If it is, it’s covered in fibre reinforced self levelling.
Cheers Paul. :)
Yet another ufh system added to the list. :oops:
Looks ok tho, although I’m a bit dubious about their statement about finished floor being perfectly flat. :D
 
OP
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I see on the report it is a C28/35 screed with Enduro HPP45 macro reinforement fibres. The tile removed was over the expansion joint which was 10mm depth. Would that be screed depth?
 

Andy Allen

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Was the UFH commissioned before tiling.?

How long after tiling was the UFH left off before being turned on for the first time.?

And how was the UFH turned on the first time after tiling?
 
OP
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Yes, the UHF was commissioned by the building contractor. We were instructed to turn it on for 2week, then off two weeks. It was back on a week after.

Interestingly, the bathrooms are fine. A different tiler used leveling compound for to slope wet room, however used different Larsen batches...

I am wondering what could caused the Solvent smell under the tile when it was lifted? It smelled like Window cleaner
 

Andy Allen

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The tiling should of been left for 3 to 4 weeks before turning the UFH on , then it should of been turned on just a few degrees each day to build up the temperature very slowly.
 
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O

Old Mod

Unfortunately it’s difficult to determine very much at all at the moment because the information you are providing is incomplete.
The under floor heating commissioning is very important and is done in a very specific way.
Incorrect procedures can cause catastrophic failure.

To say it was turned on for two weeks and then turned off two weeks, and back on a week later, just isn’t enough information I’m afraid.
Temperature increase by specific increments is very important as is the time scale.
It sounds by the way you’re describing it that you just whacked the heating on for two weeks, then shut it off for two weeks, then whacked it on one week after Tiling, if it happened this way it will have contributed to the failure.
We can’t advise if we don’t have full disclosure and full answers to the questions asked.
Tiling is very much an exact science these days, with each product used relying on the next one to achieve a successful install.
 
O

Old Mod

What was Larsens final conclusion, did you receive a written report?

You say the bathrooms are fine, do they have the same wet ufh, or are they electric?

Your ufh system, whose manufacturers it?
Who installed it?
 
OP
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Sorry, should be more exact.

We have a Air to Water, Ecodan system. Not sure how to describe the UFH, it is wet (pipes filled)

We built with a contractor therefore the only part we did outside the contract was tiling. The plumber and electrician turen on the heating to 15C then up by 2C over 5days to reach 25C for 2weeks. It was off for 2weeks prior to tiling. The tiler asked turn it on to 10C then to 15C at 1week after as he finished the ensuite (actually he used same Larsen batch for this) . He refused to tile the other two bathrooms as he found the bathroom tiles too hard (good quality). We ended up getting a different local tiler for the other 2bathroom a few weeks later ( diffetent larsen batches). That being said all bathrooms are fine! This makes me think concrete!

Yes Larsens took a sample but analysis was looking at the how the adhesive & Primer stuck to the tile when lifted. The report only concludes that their products did not bond to the floor by look and feel. No science based testing done! Everyone (tiler, builder, Larsen rep, tile shop, engineer, concrete rep) commented on the smell under the tile! No-one know what/How it was caused, likely to be the issue here..

We also got the concrete rep to take a floor sample and report confirms its integrity & strength.

The tiler discussed how the floor was clean, dust free, ready for tiling. He applied Larsen Acrylic Primer allover the ground floor. Used Lasen flexible rapid set adhesive. 75x75 tile. Adhesive covered the full tile ( no blobs)

The reputable building contractor discussed how they apply the same floor and UFH (even the type/plumber) to majority if their builds. But feels it is tile/Larsen product failure is the cause
 
O

Old Mod

Thank you, that’s an excellent description, and it makes it easier to eliminate certain aspects of the procedure.
No conclusion right at this moment, but it can now be researched for possible causes.
Then hopefully we can direct you as to what steps can be taken next to help determine the underlying cause of the failure.
Obviously we can only speculate as to the cause of the failure as we're trying to conduct an investigation on line and not in person.
But at least with the new information you have provided it will go a long way to help us suggest a course of action.
Alternatively you have the option of contacting the TTA (tile assoc) and they will carry out a full investigation, but obviously that will incur costs.


If the primer used is applied to thickly or is a too strong mix for the substrate, it can skin, in essence you are then just adhering the tiles to the primer and not the actual substrate beneath.
Just something to consider for the moment.
 
D

Dumbo

I doubt in any way shape or form it is a tile failure as adhesive is bonded to tile . Most adhesive manufacturers will send samples to their laboratories for testing rather than just looking at or feeling the sample maybe you should push for this . The solvent smell would suggest something is contaminated and nobody is putting their hand up to it.
I wonder if you were to take up another tile and if it smells of solvent again do a moisture test to see if their is some sort of liquid contamination in the screed .
 
O

Old Mod

Determining the type of floor screed you had installed is now becoming more important.
Many screeds now require some kind of mechanical abrasion before Tiling can commence, including cementitious screeds, if they’re liquid.
These are sprayed with a curing agent on completion and this leaves a waxy residue which must be removed.
I can’t imagine any regular primer adhering to such an unprepared surface.
A large number of screed companies return a week or two later to abraid the surface as part of the original install, however, in my experience they never complete this to a standard which is sufficiently high enough for Tiling.
The screed companies inspection would return a satisfactory result if they only reported on its integrity and strength.
I’m not suggesting they’re being underhanded, but it wouldn’t be in their interest to report the presence of the curing agent, especially if they were responsible for removing it in the first place.
In their defence tho, if the area inspected was free of contamination then their test results would return a positive report.
I’m only speculating of course, and it would be a strange coincidence too, as I have to deal with one of these screeds in the coming weeks, that’s the only reason I have a little knowledge of the procedure.
 
OP
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Thank you for your help - you can see where I am at this point in time. Messy one!!

I must say I was extremely surprised too, the report is very weak as I was expected a conclusion based on data..not look and feel. What about the Primer - Is it possible for it to "go-off" or become contaminated which you make bonding fail? Yes - it was on the adhesive but it has to go somewhere - right?

I am trying to source a lab that that can do that chemical analysis like you mentioned. I am hearing they need to know what we are testing for specifically eg what trace elements etc
 
D

Dumbo

You could possibly buy the adhesive and primer again and get them to test like for like and also maybe a screed sample also
 
OP
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I did suggest this - to take up a timber floor in another room on the ground floor and replicate the tiling event. No-one thought it was a good idea only me at the time. We we would not have the same Batches of course bit it would be test of concrete/floor base. Larsen mentioned they do not keep a retain of batches sold (i find this hard to believe as I thought every company would keep a sample of product manufactured - for customer complaints!

3_fall - i will need to find out what screed it is. The floor preparation was also discussed at the visit by Everyone - the tiler was happy with the floor on inspection prior to tiling. I belived the level of abrasion was ok (rough surface). What exact questions should I be asking??..so I can find answers
 
D

Dumbo

I was meaning send adhesive sample from floor and primer sample from floor with some new adhesive and primer to lab so they can test like for like to see if there is any difference between the different samples
 
O

Old Mod

From what I’ve understood an outside contractor was brought in to install your screed, most companies have a preferred system they use, whether it be cementitious or gypsum based, and every one has its unique characteristics, this determines the level of prep.
I’m not suggesting for one minute your tiler is at fault, but not every screed is prepared in the same way.
Without product information, we can’t be sure prep was correct, which will ultimately often cause failure of the finished floor.
Sometimes a visual inspection without all the relevant information can be misleading.
 

Ajax123

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Based on your initial post this seems a really straight forward failure to me. you say the adhesive came off with the tile and the primer was attached tot he adhesive leaving a clean sub floor. This means simply that the primer had failed to stick to the floor. There are generally only 2 reasons why this happens. 1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply form a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key. 2. too much moisture in the sub floor causing lack of absorption of the primer into the subfloor with the same result. A third option which I used to see a lot but not so much these days is the lack of dilution of a primer that required dilution. This is less common these days as most primers do not require dilution.

the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete. It is unlikely to have been anything on top of the subfloor as true solvents tend to evaporate quickly when surface bound.

I think you are trying to lay blame where it doesn't lie as for me this is a simple preparation/pre tiling treatment issue.
 
OP
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Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).


2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities
 

Ajax123

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Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

If the primer has not penetrated into the screed it will simply form a skin over it's surface and some away on the back of the adhesive. This is a visual test. If there is primer on the adhesive and on the floor this is usually caused by primer degradation causing coheive faokure withjn the primer. often due to inappropriate primer e.g PVA. What I usually see in cases of poor preparation is patches of primer and small bits of adhesive stuck to the floor but most coming off Inn the tile.

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).

Suitable moisture levels for tiling can only be assessed by testing using a suitable testing equipment e.g. hygromerer. If no test was carried out who can possibly say if it was dry enough.


2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

Depends entirely on the screed type and composition. There are so many screeds in the market these days that without knowing which it was it is impossible to say if polymer modifiers, waterproofers, water reducing agents, air entrainers, or what ever else should be there or not. The supplier should be able to give this information. These can be added at supplier level of or site level.

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities

Whilst not impossible it is unlikely given the relatively stringent quality processes used by CE marked companies that it is a product fault.

As I said based on your description in the first post it sounds like prep or pre installation error. Strange smells sometimes occur. In my experience, which whilst fallible is not inconsiderable, these are usually a red herring... mind you that would also smell fishy...

Often the route cause is difficult to,pinpoint as it is usually a combination things.

Who do you want to take the responsibility for this issue? What exactly are you looking for?
 
OP
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Honestly, I just want to find out why the tiles de-bonded and how it happend, the responsible person would then be identified. I dont have a preference, but if I dont find answers...then it will most likely fall to me ( no hand, act or part in it...only paying for the job)

I do understand it is difficult to pinpoint, but you do have good suggestions to be fair and I would like to explore them...if I knew how and what to look for?
 
O

Old Mod

As I said before, the TTA (tile assoc) can carry out an inspection, if they can’t visit because of your location, they’ll know someone you can contact, I’m sure.
5CF01B75-D06A-40EE-B06A-D589DB802C01.jpeg

Follow the link.

The TTA

And they will not automatically support the tiler, believe me.

Yes moisture content can be checked, using a hair hygrometer or Carbide Bomb Test.
Yes the tiler should take steps to ensure moisture levels are correct.
Again this is why determining the type of screed is important.
Some dry much faster than others.
How long after the ‘concrete guys’ had completed their tasks was it before it was tiled?
Regular standard sand and cement takes a day for every mm of depth up to 40mm. After that it’s 1mm per two days.
But some can be fit to tile in just a week.
 

Boggs

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Can you post a few pictures of the tile that was lifted, the back of it and the subfloor where the tile was lifted from.

It will help us to offer further advise on maybe why it has failed.
 
T

Time's Ran Out

If it’s a new build would it not be covered in their National House Builders insurance?
 

Ajax123

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