AKW Wetroom disaster

[Yorkshire steve]

We had our bathroom completely re-done last November. We hadn’t even started to use the shower before the grout (Mapei) had started to crack in the shower area. The tiles in the dry area have also cracked and move now.
This is an AKW tough form (fitted straight into the joists with extra noggins) with a Norcros wetseal tanking kit tape and liquid. The tray was 60 grit sanded to give a key and tanking liquid painted all across the tray and 1m up the wall and 500mm onto the plywood dry area.
Here’s the first problem. AKW said you only paint the taped areas as it won’t stick to the tray. Norcros said paint everywhere .
12mm ply was fastened correctly over the floorboards (not glued though) and tile primer used before tiling with a ultra pro flex rapidset adhesive.
The tiler can’t understand why it’s done it and neither can the Mapei rep when he came to look. He just said we must have movement.
The whole floor has to be removed and redone. The hard part is who is to blame? The tiler has offered to re-tile it for free if I buy the tiles(porcelain) etc. The work on the walls is great.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[hmtiling]

I've never tiled yo a composite former without a membrane down. It this not the specification for these?

 

[Yorkshire steve]

I've never tiled yo a composite former without a membrane down. It this not the specification for these?

Not according to AKW.

 

[Tony_C]

Can you lift the tiles that move? that will give you a better idea of what is going on.

Their own installation video shows a membrane being used over the tray and complete floor, skip to 4 minutes How to install a wetroom on a timber floor - AKW TuffForm & FormSafe - https://youtu.be/n2EPzSH6AzY

And page 7 of their installation guide https://www.akw-ltd.co.uk/wp-conten...003-Tuff-Form-2-Installation-Instructions.pdf

 

[Dumbo]

To be honest I've done akw formers in the past and I use their membrane.

 

[Yorkshire steve]

Here’s lies part of the problem. My local bathroom centre where we bought all the equipment from gave him this with the tray. I asked why this was different and they said this is the new way of doing it. Even AKW said it was ok but only to seal the joints.



tiler

 

[Dumbo]

Here’s lies part of the problem. My local bathroom centre where we bought all the equipment from gave him this with the tray. I asked why this was different and they said this is the new way of doing it. Even AKW said it was ok but only to seal the joints.



tiler View attachment 107315

Here is your problem if any body says any thing to you that is different from their fixing instructions you need to get it in writing I've had manufacturers go back on what they have told me when I ask them to send me a written method statement.

 

[Yorkshire steve]

Here is your problem if any body says any thing to you that is different from their fixing instructions you need to get it in writing I've had manufacturers go back on what they have told me when I ask them to send me a written method statement.

Also I still can’t understand why the tiles have not stuck to the Ply.

 

[Dumbo]

Ply is rubbish to tile to . It's not dimensionally stable and also chemicals used in the production of ply can also affect the bond strength of the adhesive to it

 

[One Day]

Also I still can’t understand why the tiles have not stuck to the Ply.

Most if not all ply now is rubbish. Very thin veneers of hardwood which delaminate with the water in the tile adhesive as it tries to bond, and often contaminated with agents to prevent sheets sticking together.

 

[One Day]

Tanking liquid painted all over the tray you say?
So an SBR (maybe water-based) liquid onto a sanded composite.
Probably hasn't bonded well at all. Then the tile adhesive which will bond very well to the tanking liquid has probably also helped "pull" the now-dried tanking further off the tray.
I always fix a waterproof membrane like Kerdi or Mapeguard WP to trays using something VERY sticky like Ardex WPC or Kerdi-col. Never had the problems you have here.
The blame is with poor advice first from your supplier but also really with the installer who should know better, or have checked.

...I just checked, the Norcross tanking kit is water based so it's never going to stick well to composites.

 

[Pauly tiler]

These so call how to videos are the problem, Innocent and not so innocent people are using these videos to do, or spec all sorts of jobs, ( not in this case maybe ) 6mm ply over boarding to floor boards, not even glued in any fashion, that may of helped a bit but its still wrong. Oh and dont forget the throw away line about " Fix the tiles with water based grout". It does appear that the wrong sealing kit was sold with that former. I feel sorry for the public sometimes, what with the cost of tiles, shower bases, over boarding, the cost when done right are quite surprising, it is no wonder they go to Ebay etc. to source materials and thats where the problems can start. It is so expensive if it fails. If this poor person was sold this system on the advise of anybody in a official capacity be it tiler, shop assistant, or builder, there should be recourse via that channel.
If the client bought the materials off their own research, then that is a grey area. Should the tiler have researched the supplied materials?? Ideally yes, in the real world of "turn up and start working, all the gear is here" the supplier, who ever they are need to grow a pair.

Pauly

 

[Pauly tiler]

I should have added, well done to the tilers for offering to re-tile the area If they were not involved with the specifying of the materials.
It hurts but its the right way to go. Good man.

 

[Yorkshire steve]

These so call how to videos are the problem, Innocent and not so innocent people are using these videos to do, or spec all sorts of jobs, ( not in this case maybe ) 6mm ply over boarding to floor boards, not even glued in any fashion, that may of helped a bit but its still wrong. Oh and dont forget the throw away line about " Fix the tiles with water based grout". It does appear that the wrong sealing kit was sold with that former. I feel sorry for the public sometimes, what with the cost of tiles, shower bases, over boarding, the cost when done right are quite surprising, it is no wonder they go to Ebay etc. to source materials and thats where the problems can start. It is so expensive if it fails. If this poor person was sold this system on the advise of anybody in a official capacity be it tiler, shop assistant, or builder, there should be recourse via that channel.
If the client bought the materials off their own research, then that is a grey area. Should the tiler have researched the supplied materials?? Ideally yes, in the real world of "turn up and start working, all the gear is here" the supplier, who ever they are need to grow a pair.

Pauly

I should have added, well done to the tilers for offering to re-tile the area If they were not involved with the specifying of the materials.
It hurts but its the right way to go. Good man.

Thanks for all the info. This was his first wetroom too.
It’s going to cost me about £200 for new tiles plus adhesive. Would it be better to remove all the floorboards and replace with 18mm ply then overboard or crack mat before tiling.
I’m going to use different tiles this time which will be the same as the wall tiles which are 785x390.
It’s a very small area of 1x1.6m dry area and 1.5x900 shower. The original floor tiles were 785x785 so too big in such a small space so I had them cut into 4.
I’d like to use mosaic in the shower area but this risks more grout lines for possible leaks. Could maybe use epoxy grout ?

 

[Pauly tiler]

Its a hard one to put numbers or a remedy to, I would think that once the floor tiles have been removed, the tanking system may well be compromised, or at the very least its life span shortened. I also would look at removing the first course of wall tiles. Once removed, carefully inspect the system, if you are happy do a flood test for 24 hours, if you are lucky, and all you Christmases come in with the Derby winner go for it. If there is movement on the outer floor, strip it out and go again, Dont skimp, you have been there now. In fairness I would not expect the tiler to be responsible for all this work though.

 

[Tony_C]

So can you lift a tile in the dry area? This will tell you if the water has leaked into this area and probably warped the ply causing your loose tiles.

The grout lines are not your problem to be causing the leaks, it is what is going on under it, i think @impish is probably bang on and your tanking liquid has de bonded from the tray taking the tiles with it. You haven't mentioned adding a membrane this time which is the main advice being given so add that to your list. Remove the 12mm ply and replace with a backer board something like 12mm Jackoboard which is waterproof also. CTD sell it if you have one close and for the size of area you need you won't be spending much more than ply.

Paul is also correct that you will most likely need to remove the first row of tiles as all the taping/tanking seals will most likely be destroyed during removal so it would be best practise to do up to this row again.

You can do the mosaics no problem but yeah go for Epoxy, belt and braces this time!

 

[Yorkshire steve]

Its a hard one to put numbers or a remedy to, I would think that once the floor tiles have been removed, the tanking system may well be compromised, or at the very least its life span shortened. I also would look at removing the first course of wall tiles. Once removed, carefully inspect the system, if you are happy do a flood test for 24 hours, if you are lucky, and all you Christmases come in with the Derby winner go for it. If there is movement on the outer floor, strip it out and go again, Dont skimp, you have been there now. In fairness I would not expect the tiler to be responsible for all this work though.

How about the mosaic tiles. I’d like to use the same glass tiles as used for a centre strip on the wall in the shower. The manufacturer has recommended against this as it has some metal tiles in it. I was thinking of removing them and replacing with the same glass.
I’m almost at the stage where I’d rather pay someone else whose fitted these wet rooms to do it for me.

 

[Tony_C]

You are going to have to accept a large part of the blame here yourself, yes the tiler should have perhaps looked into it in more depth but he probably accepted the information being passed to him was fact as it was his first installation and you fed him that information. He womt be doing that again i bet. Twice you have went against what AKH recommended, firstly not following the membrane instructions and then secondly painting the whole tray after AKH saying to only use it on the joints. All this on the back of what a guy at a DIY store sold you and told you what to do. it probably sounds harsh but it is the main facts that have probably led to this

Personally i would avoid glass on a floor.

 

[Yorkshire steve]

You are going to have to accept a large part of the blame here yourself, yes the tiler should have perhaps looked into it in more depth but he probably accepted the information being passed to him was fact as it was his first installation and you fed him that information. Twice you have went against what AKH recommended, firstly not following the membrane instructions and then secondly painting the whole tray after AKH saying to only use it on the joints. All this on the back of what a guy at a DIY store sold you and told you what to do. it probably sounds harsh but it is the main facts that have probably led to this

Personally i would avoid glass on a floor.

Thanks Tony. Yes I do accept responsibility jointly with the tiler. I’ve known the owner of the Diy store for 30 years and always trusted him. I think the main mistake was using a tiler who’d Never done a wetroom before.

 

[Yorkshire steve]

Just had a chat with Norcros and he said it should never have been used on the tray for tanking. It’s only designed for plasterboard and plaster and ply.

 

[Pauly tiler]

Sounds like a terrible product if you cant even use it on Weidi/Marmox. Plaster and plywood is sooo last century.

 

[Wetroom specialist]

The moral of this story is ONLY EVER USE THE ONE SUPPLIER FOR YOUR WETROOM KITS! Sorry but I spend all my time on these forums just repeating myself. What do you think is going to happen if something goes wrong? They will either blame each other's products or worse , you!