Resin backed stone - adhesive

[IHB]

Is there a good adhesive to use on resin backed stone or is it best to score/grind the resin mesh?

 

[White Room]

If it was a resin tile a 2 part addy, not sure on resin backed stone, seems a right old mixture.

 

[IHB]

It's Marble with a mesh stuck to the back with some type of glue/resin. I believe it's done to reinforce the veins in the tiles. Most seem strong enough to hold without the mesh but guess it helps handling & transport.

 

[White Room]

What size tiles are they....

 

[Lee@emctiles]

2 part or TileMaster Ulitmate would be my weapons of choice

 

[Ian]

Is it a porcelanosa tile by any chance?

 

[J Sid]

Came across this about 5 years ago. Marble with resin backed webbing. At the time no adhesive suppliers would guarantee a way to do it. So scratch the back and buttered with adhesive plus add mix. Did work, had no come backs.

 

[IHB]

Large tiles are 600x400. Mosaics are 50x50.

Not porcelanosa Bri

I could grind the back off the large tiles but the mosaics are a worry. As well as the resin mesh they are mounted on a second mesh that seems to use a water soluble glue rather than the (probably) epoxy based backing. So the mosaics have both - you wonder if any of the tile will be in contact with the adhesive!

 

[Concrete guy]

You need to ask the stone supplier for their specification, not the adhesive manufacturers.

This is normal on softer marbles, Crema Marfil, Rojo Alicante, most of the Emperadors etc and is, as already suggested, to help keep the tile/slab intact during transport and handling.

The manufacturer of the stone will be able to supply you with a spec for their choice of resin mesh and details of which adhesives are suitable or not.

 

[IHB]

Supplier was happy with Weber but Weber list resin backed as not suitable. Guess there are different types of resins & Weber might just be covering themselves?

 

[Concrete guy]

Quite frankly, I fitted this stuff for years with Ardex X7 and Ardion 90 admix and never once had an issue. This was before there were specialist stone adhesives like S20W.

I understand the need to comply with BS and various other regulations but sometimes I wonder if it's all gone a little bit too far and we're all falling over ourselves trying to comply with every possible minute detail rather than just getting on with it with a product that's worked for decades.

 

[simon75]

...the mosaics are a worry. As well as the resin mesh they are mounted on a second mesh that seems to use a water soluble glue rather than the (probably) epoxy based backing. So the mosaics have both - you wonder if any of the tile will be in contact with the adhesive!

British Standards say at least 75% of the back of mosaic must be able to come into contact with the adhesive. If there is so much mesh on there that it prevents this, then walk away and refuse to fix them. Deanotile had the same issue with some Porcelanosa stone mosaic a while back, and they eventually refunded the customer because he refused to fix them because they could not be fixed in line with British Standards. If you fix them, and the installation fails, and you haven't complied with BS then it will be down to you to foot the bill (and your insurance probably won't pay out either).

 

[IHB]

So which of the Ardex adhesives would you think would be best with the Mosaics (Wall & floor).

All the stone ones look like rapid set & I'd prefer slower, at least for the walls.

X7, X7G and X77 all look similar to me.

 

[Concrete guy]

Personally I'd go with X7W unless it's a darkstone/grout combination.

It's the modern equivalent of X7 Ardion 90.

 

[IHB]

Do you mean X77W ? I thought X7W is just X7 White.

 

[Concrete guy]

http://www.ardex.co.uk/Portals/0/productdocs/73e604b8-8497-4d81-9653-bc80d03f016a.pdf

 

[IHB]

I've spoken to Weber and Ardex tech support and:
- Weber can't recommend any of their adhesives.
- Ardex don't guarantee any either.

Ardex tech were very helpful & seems that X7+ E90 or X77 will work 9 times out of 10 but could fail. Problem is that the Epoxy coating is an unknown and varies in quality so they don't know what your sticking to. Can get a failure of the epoxy/tile bond or the adhesive/epoxy bond but if everything is rigid and stable then probably okay. Weber didn't go into as much detail but I suspect the same is true.

Epoxy mesh seems like a **** poor idea. Can't blame them not recommending or guaranteeing to be honest. Think I'll be grinding of the backs to make contact with the tile itself on the larger tiles and keeping fingers crossed on the mosaics.

 

[Concrete guy]

How thick are these tiles?

 

[IHB]

13mm. Seem quite stable & I don't think most of them actually need the mesh.

 

[Concrete guy]

You'd be surprised how much rigidity that resin and mesh adds to a veneer of stone. In reality the epoxy used in these products it likely to be stronger and have a stronger bond than the marble itself, but no one can ever guarantee that as there are too many variables.

There comes a point when you have to put down the BS spec sheets and make a judgement call with the information provided but the tech departments of each manufacturer.

I used to use Ardex products because I found their tech department so helpful and open to a chat if you were ever unsure about anything.

 

[cam_low]

Ive fixed these cheap tiles lots of times. Ditra. Spf. Back butter. Watch out for tile sizes and out of square tiles. Are these internet bought tiles? Sample semt to customer in 10x10cm size showing a perfect marble.
In reality the 600x400 is veiny and in parts rough!!!! Held together with the resin back mosaic.
When wet cutting expect some to fall apart on the machine bed.

 

[widler]

I wouldn't grind then,daft really, just weakening them, the mesh and resin is there for a reason

 

[Concrete guy]

Ive fixed these cheap tiles lots of times. Ditra. Spf. Back butter. Watch out for tile sizes and out of square tiles. Are these internet bought tiles? Sample semt to customer in 10x10cm size showing a perfect marble.
In reality the 600x400 is veiny and in parts rough!!!! Held together with the resin back mosaic.
When wet cutting expect some to fall apart on the machine bed.

I believe these are wall tiles. As much as Ditra seems to have become the answer to every tiling related problem, I'm not sure it's being used to uncouple marble wall tiling yet. But I have no doubt it's only a matter of time before something is developed :sofahide:

 

[cam_low]

Lol

 

[IHB]

Okay. So no grinding. Would you just push ahead with Weber SPF or would Ardex X7 + E90 be better. Both aren't recommended by the adhesive manufacturer but I suspect both will stick.

 

[cam_low]

I set one on the first job I did as I was dubious. Could I hell get it up. That contact epoxy stuff is well sticky stuff lol. Up toyou mate.
Belt n braces 2 part.

 

[Concrete guy]

They will both stick like poo to a blanket.

What you need to remember is the manufacturer cannot provide a guarantee for a product that isn't theirs.

In this case, the marble is glued to epoxy and mesh, the adhesive is attached to the epoxy and mesh. The manufacturer can guarantee their product will adhere to the epoxy and mesh but beyond that they can't reasonably offer anything.

When fitting this stuff you'll often find overlaps at some of the tile edges where epoxy and mesh have wrapped over a bit, if it's a devils job to clean these bits off even with a sharp stanley knife, then it's reasonable to think that it's likely to hold together once it's attached to the wall.

The flip side of this is when you find you can simply peel up a corner of backing mesh by hand, then strip the whole sheet off without much effort - that's the point you pack it all up and take it back to the shop as not fit for purpose.

In situations like these it's just a bit of common sense really.

 

[IHB]

The tiles all seem vey good to be honest. All square, same size, same thickness, all very regular and hold together when wet cut using a overhead saw.

Most of the mesh is well stuck. As you say there are parts where the epoxy hasn't taken that are easy to strip to the stone.

If the adhesive sticks to the epoxy mesh then it's all I ask. Weber printing "not recommended for resin backed" all over their tech sheets is what's made me pause. In reality it seems to stick extremely well so either they're being cautious (can't blame them) or the bond may fail in time.

Ian