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  1. Schluter and U

Discuss Pietra Serena Sandstone 800x800mm help in the Stone Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.co.uk.

  1. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Hi All..

    This is my first post here – I usually lurk around and find this site very useful for general info. I’m looking for some product advice (and general advice) for a tiling job I’m doing at my house.

    Details
    Floor Area - 145m2
    Tile - 800x800x20mm Pietra Serena Sandstone in light grey
    Substrate – 12 month old concrete slab, no underfloor heating, level to about 4mm across it’s entire length. Slab has been wet vacuumed so is generally dust free.

    I plan on laying the tiles in accordance with this video



    1. Lay tiles with Mapei Elastorapid Adhesive with 10mm notch trowel and back butter entire tile. I'm not planning to use a primer as the slab is as dust free as you can get in a new build. Mapei say that it's not required with their product.
    2. Seal with pre-treatment Fila PRW200
    3. Grout with Mapei Keracolour 113GG
    4. Clean with Fila Cleaner
    5. Grease resistant treatment with W68 Fila Jet Matt Satin

    Questions
    1. Has anyone used a cheaper fast drying adhesive product that is compatible with sandstone? The Mapei stuff seems to be very expensive.
    2. Same with grout – anyone used a more cost effective grout that can be used with sandstone?
    3. Am I using the correct trowel notch?
    4. The vast majority of the cut tiles will be hidden under the skirting. I don’t have a tile cutter and a decent bridge saw for 800mm tiles looks like it will be £800 odd quid. Could I get away with a handheld saw with a guide rail? Does anyone have any recommendations?

    Thanks for your help in advance.
    Stuart
     
  2. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Forgot to mention - I was looking to use spacers with the levelling wedges. Does anyone have a recommendation for a decent product. I worry that some versions might snap off with having to lift such a heavy tile.
    Cheers,
    Stuart
     
  3. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner

    Location:
    North East England
    Stuart - 145 sq mts of 20mm 800x800mm stone!
    I'am sure there are threads in the search and other members who will provide ongoing input, however I personally don't believe this is a DIY project and therefore cannot help in your request.
    I wonder if there is a member near you who could provide an advisory role for a nominal cost to stage visit and provide ongoing support.
    Good luck.
     
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  4. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks John,
    It’s a big project indeed but I’m confident of getting a decent result with a bit of good advice. I’ve built this house from scratch and managed just fine till now. I’ve had a search on the threads and can’t find anything specific to this type of stone so thought it best to start a new thread.

    I’m an architect but can also turn my hand to nearly all trades with results that are consistently neater and to the book than the trades I occasionally employ to give me a hand (albeit I take longer). Your advice about getting someone experienced in on a day rate for advice and some ad-hoc help is good and something that I occasionally do – if anyone is near Glasgow then I’d be keen to discuss. I don’t have any problems with the procedural side of things or even the practical when I get going – just looking for some opinions on products and tips and tricks if anyone has some experience with this sort of tile.

    I’m aware of several other products that claim to do the same thing as the Mapei range. I’ve used Mapei before so know its characteristics but would like to source a more cost effective product so want to hear about peoples experience of other products. I’m speaking to ProRapid and a couple of others but am open to suggestions.

    Cheers,
    Stuart
     
  5. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
  6. jcrtiling

    jcrtiling Professional Tiler TTA Member Top Contributor

    Location:
    Salisbury
    I would use a primer for the cost of it what harm can it do compared to the risk of failure . Also large format trowel for that size tile . Lithofin sealing products I find are more user friendly than fila .
    Quality hand held grinder with quality blade should cut them although you may need more than one blade . But as timeless John says not really a day job
     
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  7. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks for the tips. I've used Fila before so was quite confident with it so purchased it a while ago. Maybe have a look at Lithofin next time.

    I'm seeing some decent prices for the Proflex SP Rapid adhesive. After speaking to their rep they do recommend a primer. I'll always do what the manufacturer suggests so if I go with them I'll use the primer. Can any of you vouch for the Proflex products on natural stone?
     
  8. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner

    Location:
    North East England
    Stuart - ok you sound confident and even though your an Architect; 2nd to engineers on the list of 'clients to avoid'
    but we'll do what we can!
    Adhesive and cost - look for the Tilemaster range or if you are near Ctd Glasgow they are competitive.
    John.
     
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  9. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks John, I'll have a look today.

    I can be a nightmare client as I can hang around observing a bit too much. Not just because I like to keep an eye on things but mostly because I like to get stuck in and want to learn the tips and tricks of each trade. I find that spending a lot of times with trades and taking part really helps with my job. I'll let you know how I get on
     
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  10. jcrtiling

    jcrtiling Professional Tiler TTA Member Top Contributor

    Location:
    Salisbury
    Not required and do not use are to different things when doing as a manufacturer says
     
  11. antonio

    antonio Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    italy
    [​IMG]
    upload_2017-4-20_17-31-53.jpeg
    pietra serena, here,little useless, for flooring. (Tuscan stone).
    just some stairs, or window sills, because it is combined with the oldest areas of the country.
    Soft material, very absorbent, quick adhesive is better, less risk of stains. Just a damp wall and the stone absorbs and crumbles. Just to make an example, it's "tough" like carrara marble.
    I saw a bunch of jobs, ruined by humidity.
    Sorry if I speak to you clearly and say what I see here ..
    Sorry again and you hope to succeed in the work.
     
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  12. antonio

    antonio Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    italy
    sorry, little used , google translate Capricious today ;)
     
  13. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks Antonio,

    I’m aware of the difficulties using this product here. Thankfully my project is a very dry new build.

    I’m most worried about staining due to using the wrong adhesive. I understand that if the adhesive is too moist and slower setting then it can wet the stone and cause it to damp stain or effloresce in the worst case. Also sealing the tile too quickly after using a moist adhesive can lock in the moisture causing issues with the finish. For this reason I plan to use a fast set adhesive.

    Other problems can be caused by grouting. I’ve seen jobs that look like they have wet edges only to discover that the installer hasn’t spread the grout over the entire tile. What I was seeing was staining which can be partially resolved by cleaning intensively but will never quite disappear unless the entire tile is slightly stained by applying grout over the entire face.

    Thanks for your kind wishes – I hope I succeed too as they were quite expensive to buy (although I got a good deal as I went direct to the quarry in Italy to cut out the middle man)
     
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  14. antonio

    antonio Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner Top Contributor

    Location:
    italy
    Definitely fast adhesive.
     
  15. JulianSidney

    JulianSidney Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler

    Location:
    ramsey, essex
    evening Stuart
    a big project to take on , but good luck to you and we are here to help if we can.

    first, setting out is you first challenge. Take your time and double check.

    for a project that size buy a wet cutter and a good blade. I sure it will come in handy for bathroom etc. As well. Can always sell it on eBay when job is complete.

    When working with stone I can't stress enough how important it is to understand the products you will be using.

    has you stone supplier specified what adhesive they recommend? Have you asked? If not talk to Tilemaster, Weber, Ardex or Bal technical for there advise and they will give you a method statement for fix the stone and your substrate with there product.

    work CLEAN and use the correct cleaning products for the stone. I always use Lithofin but you have chosen Fila so talk to them. Again they will give you a complete method statement from cleaning to sealing and maintenance for this stone.
    On here we have Lithofin Bob as the turn to man / font if all knowledge when it comes to advise. Ask nicely and he could help.

    With all stone the correct drying times are important before attempting to seal, and from what I've see of this stone it can take a long time to dry enough to be ready for sealing.

    Get some emails sent.
    Don't rely on YouTube videos, the one you posted is probably sponsored by Mapei, directly or indirectly to sell the adhesive. A very pricey one at that.
     
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  16. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    It would of been easier and quicker just to of laid it in sand and cement,doing away with all the adhesive products. I've laid thousands of metres of this always back buttering the stone also.
     
  17. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner

    Location:
    North East England
    Big statement for your first post - Iam sure some pictures of your completed jobs would help the OP with his project.
     
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  18. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks for the comments Julian,

    That’s what I’m thinking about the cutter. I have 4 bathrooms to tile after the floor so it’ll get some use. Are those £380 bridge saws on ebay any use or will they just fall apart after a few cuts?

    I’ve been speaking to the suppliers… but as you know there’s nothing better than getting some practical information from those using the products. One example is that I’ve been given 2 recommendations for Lithofin after being sold on Fila by the suppliers so burying my head in product literature isn’t always the answer – although your point is taken. I’m sure there are dozens of products that can do what I need but I’d like to use the one that is the most user friendly.

    The supplier pointed me in the direction of Mapei.. although interestingly they did say that they can be laid with cement but the drying time would be up to a month before they can be sealed. The same tile was used in the Apple stores and they went down with fast set Mapei I believe.

    I’m primarily a commercial architect specialising in high end shop fits so have plenty of experience setting out to achieve a good appearance. I have all the lasers, site dumpy levels, large straight edges etc so I’m confident in running straight and true.. however, I probably need some advice on the best place to tackle first. The entire job is set out as to allow a full tile in the centre of the two hallways (shown in red). This also gives a decent size of cut tile at the large patio doors which is important as they run off line by 27mm. A thin cut here would be noticed so this setting out seems to work.

    In terms of starting the job I would be tempted to lay the tiles highlighted in red first and tile off them. Does anyone have any opinions on if this is the best approach? My other challenge is to tile under the door frames and either side of partition walls with a single tile… although I have a plan for this!
     
  19. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
  20. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Not my fist post was here years ago just have not posted in a while as busy
     
  21. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Stuart have you Screeder the floor yet
     
  22. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Timeless John I was giving advice not belittling people.
     
  23. JulianSidney

    JulianSidney Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler

    Location:
    ramsey, essex
    get a good blade for your eBay wet cutter and that would be fine.

    Apple store tiles, I know them. Did a nice patio in them a few year ago. Laid in rapid cement based adhesive on a screed. Was back there yesterday doing a shower and still looks good, if not in need of a clean.

    setting out looks good. Expansion joints?
     
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  24. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Hi Mark,
    Not screeded. The floor has been power floated and is level. The biggest undulation is 4mm over a 3m straight edge so I think it's good enough to tile directly on to.
     
  25. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Stuart you would be easier doing it in sand and cement .lay as you have already set it out. Lay your first course all the way through the building then come off it simple. Lay all the full stones first then cut in after.
     
  26. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Sorry Stuart read that wrong so you don't kneed to screed
     
  27. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    I have a nagging doubt about the control joints... the slab doesn't have any. It's a Passive House with an unusual foundation slab (which I'll not go into now) but effectively the slab can move at the entire perimeter due to the way the insulation is designed. As a result engineer saw no need for movement joints.

    Now for the tiles I plan to use one of the flexible adhesives. Being a passive house there will be a consistent 21 degree temperature so there will be little variance in air temperature. However, that said there's lots of south facing glass meaning that the floor will heat up. The building is just over 7m wide so the tiles can expand into the perimeter under the skirting (the walls have 47mm service battens so there's loads of space under the skirting). As a result I don't need anything across the width of the building. However, the building is 25m long so I might put a movement joint where the tiles pass into the hallway from the kitchen.
     
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  28. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Hi Mark,
    Thanks for the comments.. I would have been reluctant to use sand and cement as the drying time is so long. From what I've been told you have to leave it up to a month before sealing etc... Unfortunately I don't have that long as we're in a caravan and about to have a baby in 6 weeks!

    But as I'm always specifying other jobs I'd like to hear more.. are you laying with sand cement and sealing quickly without issues?
     
  29. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    Need expansion every 6 to 10 metres
     
  30. Mark D'ARCY

    Mark D'ARCY Active Member

    Location:
    London
    We use ardex a38 in the screed can be sealed after 2 days
     
  31. Lithofin BOB

    Lithofin BOB Company Support

    Location:
    Hampshire
    If only it was as simple as installing 4 large tiles you can walk around in the vid!!!!

    Couple of points from me to consider with this stone , moisture has to release fully proir to impregnation ,either from cleaning or instalation. She can bite you!!!

    On the attached film ,I am a little confused with the suggestion of impregnating the stone first with a hydrophobic only impregnator , as this then could block further impregnation with the w68 a water based product , which will give you your final water and oil protection.
    For me , I would use the w68 for both coats ( prior and after grouting) this will then enable you to give deeper protection with the first saturation and top up with the final application, including your grout,greater protection against oil based staining. I would give fila a call to discuss this on their tech line.

    They also recomend a clean with deterdek ( a buffered acid ) be aware ,not all pietra serena is acidic resistant and I have seen many of these floors pitted out with the use of these types of products, ( test first for suitability, it may be fine)

    Test your grout release on an un- laid impregnated stone prior to completing any section, be confident you can work in controlled sections to complete and clean away. Impregnators line the capillaries they do not fill them, so grout can still contaminate the face even if fully impregnated and these then will either will require the acidic approach or possible mechanical removal with kgs/ twister type pads .

    It's all in the testing ;)
     
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  32. Stuart Mulgrew

    Stuart Mulgrew Active Member

    Location:
    scotland
    Thanks Bob,
    I know - they make it look easy with the 4 tiles. When grouting, sealing etc I plan to limit my work to 4 or 6 tiles at a time to make things manageable.

    Thanks for the rest of the info. I had a bit of a think about the sealing process too. I know that's the product order that Fila recommend but to be honest I haven't questioned them on it yet but I'll get onto them. I like the idea of testing first... I'll probably have a test of the grout too just to see how quickly it goes off on the surface of this particular tile.
     
  33. Lithofin BOB

    Lithofin BOB Company Support

    Location:
    Hampshire
    Would be good to have a chat with them to confirm your suitability of products and application.


    If after that you need some professional advice , come back on here and the guys on here will sort you out.:cool:
     
  34. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner

    Location:
    North East England
    Profile said you joined today!
    Always good to be busy though.
     
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  35. timeless john

    timeless john Trusted Advisor Trusted Advisor Professional Tiler JOTM Winner

    Location:
    North East England
    Never said you were but totally inappropriate for this member who doesn't have the height , time or skill required to go your route.
     
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