Expansion Joints- Opus Pattern Floor.

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Just a quick one ,

So I've got a 75 metre floor coming up, existing kitchen, hall and utility with solid quarry tiles that we are taking up back to concrete base then 80 to 100mm sand & cement screed to the extension about 30 square metres ( no underfloor heating in the screed ) so the builders are bringing new floor up flush with existing.......now the client wants the floor laid ASAP after the screed has gone in ( this is a must ) so this is the method of fixing I'm looking at doing as follows......

Tiling onto the existing concrete with an S1 adhesive then on the new screed laying Schluter ditra mating with an S2 adhesive up to/not over the joint between old & new floors and putting a Mapei mapesil mastic seal movement joint in about 5mm as I'm using Mapei ultracolour grout the mastic is a bang on match....a little wider than 3mm joints in tiles and laying onto the Schluter with an S1.....

My only concern is the tiles are natural slate opus Romano pattern so the movement joint may be an eyesore!!.....any thoughts / advice on this one would be really helpful

Thanks

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Oh I'm laying Schluter 14 days after screed has gone in......

 

[Old Mod]

Oh I'm laying Schluter 14 days after screed has gone in......

Make sure u tape and seal Ditra joints with Kerdi Band & Kerdi Coll adhesive, if you're using it to fast track floor.
Schluter will not guarantee install if u use tile adhesive.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Hi 3fall,

Right okay mate, Schluter didn't mention that!......what are your thoughts on the movement joint......I already know the builder will say no......is there another way around it???......

 

[Old Mod]

Hi 3fall,

Right okay mate, Schluter didn't mention that!......what are your thoughts on the movement joint......I already know the builder will say no......is there another way around it???......

Ok so moved this to its own thread Mark.
With a pattern like that, the best u'll manage without cutting pieces in half to accommodate expansion, is work out which part of the pattern has most joints that line up along it, put that line on your expansion joint.
Discuss with client from there about possible outcomes if u don't cut the tiles that bridge the expansion.

 

[Old Mod]

Don't forget u'll need a green screed adhesive to lay your decoupler.
Regular on top.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

O

Don't forget u'll need a green screed adhesive to lay your decoupler.
Regular on top.

okay bud, yes I see what your saying there but of course where we run a tile over the movement joint this could hairline crack - ( possibly ) all depending on movement but surely it helps with no UFH........on some contracts we have done in the past on any big domestic jobs that required movement joints with a modular pattern floor we would put a material called pesilastic - ( an anti fracture membrane ) over the movement joint and any cracks in the screed......where as on the commercial we would Schluter up to the movement joint and then install construction joints.........what do you think to running the Schluter say a metre over the joint between the 2 floors ???

 

[Old Mod]

All I can say is that it's not designed for that, clients would need to be aware of risks involved.
Trouble is if they had future problems and pointed the finger at u, u wouldn't legally have a leg to stand on.
I can't say yes that will work, cos it's not the correct way to fit a decoupler.
It may work, it may not.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Your right mate, it needs a movement joint.....period.......Schluter is to accommodate contraction/shrinkage & not to be fitted over movement joints at all then?.....bloody hell we used to do that all the time with pesilastic!.....this is what makes this forum great.......getting the right answers from industry professionals ........I'm going to have a chat with Schluter on Monday see what they are saying.....so thanks for your time anyway 3fall......much appreciated......

 

[Old Mod]

The new screed will dry slower than normal with a covering of Ditra, however this is an advantage, there'll be less chance of cracking or curling.

 

[Just Rizzle]

20 YRS ago the answer would be easy lay new floor in sand and cement semi dry screed with a galvanised mesh in the screed to stop screed cracking , tiles bonded to the screed in a sbr slurry
wait why cant it still be done today?
shlulter expansion strip between old and new.
easy no waiting done in a week

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Hi Ray,

So you would put the expansion strip all the way through and cut the tiles even with it being an opus Romano pattern.....I just got the drawings over yesterday, going out to site on Monday , see what the builder has to say about expansion strip but I have a funny feeling he ain't gonna like it!!!.....ill send you a pic or 2 next week ......thanks for your feedback on this

 

[Just Rizzle]

Hi Ray,

So you would put the expansion strip all the way through and cut the tiles even with it being an opus Romano pattern.....I just got the drawings over yesterday, going out to site on Monday , see what the builder has to say about expansion strip but I have a funny feeling he ain't gonna like it!!!.....ill send you a pic or 2 next week ......thanks for your feedback on this

you've got to go with the line regardless if you don't pound to a penny its gona crack if you bridge it. tell the builder your the expert and youll do it as your the one who will have to rectify it if it fails

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Will come back to you on this Ray

 

[Just Rizzle]

I would set the job out from the expansion joint . take control don't let the builder push you arround

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Hahaha!.....you crack me up with some of your posts Ray......ill let you know what the builders views are regards expansion joint

 

[Just Rizzle]

just got in m8 been the pub with friends 4 beers and 2 wines only cost 12.65 there is a god and he's called Samuel smith.
was at the rugby last week 2 pts Guinness £12 quid

 

[Just Rizzle]

I'm old school m8 been in this game 34 yrs and its going back wards the likes of ctd & topps are trying to control the industry .

 

[AD Ceramics]

I would set the job out from the expansion joint . take control don't let the bas tar ds push you arround

Hey that's terrible language ray the tiler, And you mw smith.....I'll edit it to the right spelling when I become a moderator.

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Yes truly terrible

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Hey that's terrible language ray the tiler, And you mw smith.....I'll edit it to the right spelling when I become a moderator.

We like to have a moan ad ceramics.......it's the job mate......you walked right into that one muck

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

The new screed will dry slower than normal with a covering of Ditra, however this is an advantage, there'll be less chance of cracking or curling.[/QUOTE
Hi 3fall,

Just following on from our last convo about this expansion joint on patterned floor.....so I've just come off the phone to Schluter and there is just no other way around it.....they say the expansion joint must run all the way through and any tiles that sit over the joint will have to be split and expansion strip incorporated.......I asked if a mastic sealant to match the grout would be sufficient so it wouldn't be so much of an eyesore......but they said definately not that this will not accommodate the movement from one screed to another so they have recommended an expansion strip called BWS which is 5mm wide which can accommodate up to 1.5mm movement on the floor or a BWB expansion joint 10mm wide which will allow 2.5mm movement.........so if the builder says no then I can't do the job .......

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Can anybody come up with any other suggestions????

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

s chance of cracking or curling.[/QUOTE
Hi 3fall,

Just following on from our last convo about this expansion joint on patterned floor.....so I've just come off the phone to Schluter and there is just no other way around it.....they say the expansion joint must run all the way through and any tiles that sit over the joint will have to be split and expansion strip incorporated.......I asked if a mastic sealant to match the grout would be sufficient so it wouldn't be so much of an eyesore......but they said definately not that this will not accommodate the movement from one screed to another so they have recommended an expansion strip called BWS which is 5mm wide which can accommodate up to 1.5mm movement on the floor or a BWB expansion joint 10mm wide which will allow 2.5mm movement.........so if the builder says no then I can't do the job

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Somebody help me out her?

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Anyone????

 

[MW Smith Ceramics]

Anyone????

Ray!.....have you any old school tricks up your sleeve here??

 

[Old Mod]

s chance of cracking or curling.[/QUOTE
Hi 3fall,

Just following on from our last convo about this expansion joint on patterned floor.....so I've just come off the phone to Schluter and there is just no other way around it.....they say the expansion joint must run all the way through and any tiles that sit over the joint will have to be split and expansion strip incorporated.......I asked if a mastic sealant to match the grout would be sufficient so it wouldn't be so much of an eyesore......but they said definately not that this will not accommodate the movement from one screed to another so they have recommended an expansion strip called BWS which is 5mm wide which can accommodate up to 1.5mm movement on the floor or a BWB expansion joint 10mm wide which will allow 2.5mm movement.........so if the builder says no then I can't do the job

All I can say is that it's not designed for that, clients would need to be aware of risks involved.
Trouble is if they had future problems and pointed the finger at u, u wouldn't legally have a leg to stand on.
I can't say yes that will work, cos it's not the correct way to fit a decoupler.
It may work, it may not.

Schluter can not and will not say anything different can they Mark.
So lay the tiles to the expansion, cut thro the few u have to, and it won't be your fault if the builder takes them out and replaces them with full ones will it!
U've tiled it to spec, if someone tampers with your install, your guarantee is void is it not!
Make sure u take photos of your install.
Just thinking out loud haha

 

[CJ]

I have exactly the same to start tomorrow..........2 different screeds, opus pattern. No UFH or membrane.......I was going to start at the screed joint, and see how it goes........trying to start with larger tile along the screeds, and if I have to split the tile, then so be it......I will. I have told customer of this, and they don't really have much of an understanding.....or interest.

Will be fun.

 

[Just Rizzle]

explain the physics of the situation if hes to thick to get it and if you've got plenty of work lined up walk away.
I personally don't need the hastle .
with o p make the expansion joint along the longest edge so you will only have a large square tile to cut in half