Another tiling job gone wrong.

[Kilo]

So, I bought my first home with my wife after saving for about 10 years and have been thrown down the proverbial well by a trader! I am asking for peoples opinions on what course of action to take. I agreed with the trader to fully tile my ensuite and after confronting them about the work not being done properly for the third time, they left. I haven't paid their closing invoice as i believe the work is not salvageable. I had paid for materials only at this point. They took me to small claims within three days and refused to come back! To add a bit of humour, the stated in their claim that I have had a nervous breakdown. Maybe after the case ends up in front of a judge i will. The less slanderous reason was that they understand that their work is up to Brit standards.

To be objective, i bought large format tiles 85x28 and the trader said nothing about the quality or size of tile when they started. The pictures (there are about 80 in total) illustrate why i wanted them to stop. They stated after they walked off that the tiles were 'warped' and they had to create miracles to cut them properly. The tiles meet BS standards and were bought from a showroom. There are numerous tiles that look like they have been cut with an angle grinder with a dull blade. I have since found out that they used a flexible adhesive which i understand is a no no for tiles over 300mm. Some of the grout lines are under 2mm. I broke one of the tiles off to see the adhesive and its not %100 percent covered. The grout lines don't join up. The trims were wasted and were not mitred. Tiles are not flush in places and are not symmetrical.

Can anyone advise on what i can add to my defence/counterclaim? I will have to take all the tiles off and most likely the plasterboard. As i said I have more pics if needed. I have emailed and posted evidence to the trader and quoted the Consumer Act. I would ask the Tile association to assess the damage but they cost £££. Thanks for reading and any help is appreciated.

 

[Dave]

Can i just say first off, where did you get the info saying flexible adhesive is a no no ?
I agree on mitring the trims , I’m not a lover of the straight cut.
chipping can be simply the glaze popping as scribed with dry cutter or from as you say machine cutting. The pics don't show the overall job but i can see your concerns in a couple pics , pipes not first fixed correctly to avoid splitting tiles. Did they do the plumbing as well ?

 

[Kilo]

Can i just say first off, where did you get the info saying flexible adhesive is a no no ?
I agree on mitring the trims , I’m not a lover of the straight cut.
chipping can be simply the glaze popping as scribed with dry cutter or from as you say machine cutting. The pics don't show the overall job but i can see your concerns in a couple pics , pipes not first fixed correctly to avoid splitting tiles. Did they do the plumbing as well ?

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply. Re the adhesive, I looked at the empty bucket they left and it states on the instructions it should not be used for tiles greater than 300mm x 300mm. The depth of tile is 11mm and they did not back butter. Re the trims, to be fair, after debate on who was paying for new trims they said they would change it. However, if you can see from the pics, the bare metal is showing and it looks like they have been chewed. I have over 80 pictures but didn't want to bombard the post. I would understand about the tile chips under normal circumstances, but there are areas where grouting would not hide this. The spacers look like they could not hold the tile and have been squashed in places. I cant get them out of the bed.

Re the plumbing, yes I asked them to plumb in a mixer shower. They have put a T into the basin hot water feed and the copper pipe is 10mm. The copper has been connected with a snap fit to some pex. They explained that they would box the pipe in. A plumber has been in, and suggested they would not be happy with leaving this with a customer. They said that the copper pipe would need to be 15mm and were concerned that (because i live in a newbuild) all the fittings leading to the basin may be snap fits, which could end up in an indoor water feature. I should not have asked them to do plumbing when they are not certified. However, again for their part they should not be providing a service that they cannot complete with reasonable skill or care.

 

[Dave]

Ok , so they have used a tubbed/bucket dispersion adhesive. That is totally not suitable for those size tiles. A bagged cement based adhesive should have been used as this set via chemical hydration and not by dispersion into the substate and tile biscuit and through exposure to air , the adhesive will remain soft on larger tiles as those.

 

[Kilo]

Ok , so they have used a tubbed/bucket dispersion adhesive. That is totally not suitable for those size tiles. A bagged cement based adhesive should have been used as this set via chemical hydration and not by dispersion into the substate and tile biscuit and through exposure to air , the adhesive will remain soft on larger tiles as those.

Thanks for that Dave and the technical information. I can confirm it is a D1 category. I have learnt the hard way about tiling. I guess this alone would vindicate my point about having to start again.

 

[Dave]

Thanks for that Dave and the technical information. I can confirm it is a D1 category. I have learnt the hard way about tiling. I guess this alone would vindicate my point about having to start again.

It certainly isn’t the best but yes wrong adhesive used and warrants you questioning that.

 

[Kilo]

I forgot to ask about the floor! I assumed that because the cuts are straight and the grout lines are 3mm in 95% of the area that it was a good job. However, I looked at their invoice for materials and did some reading. They have put a BAL rapid-mat uncoupling membrane straight onto tongue and groove chipboard. Forgetting that this a newbuild, would this prevent problems further down the line, or should they have put backer board down?

 

[Dave]

I forgot to ask about the floor! I assumed that because the cuts are straight and the grout lines are 3mm in 95% of the area that it was a good job. However, I looked at their invoice for materials and did some reading. They have put a BAL rapid-mat uncoupling membrane straight onto tongue and groove chipboard. Forgetting that this a newbuild, would this prevent problems further down the line, or should they have put backer board down?

That depends on deflection and adhesive used to the bond the matting but bal say its ok ..personally i prefer to use a Backer board like hardibacker.

 

[Kilo]

I have just checked myself...It does look like the data sheet indicates otherwise. This will also mean that potentially I will need to take these tiles off. I should by a good lump hammer.

 

[Dave]

I have just checked myself...It does look like the data sheet indicates otherwise. This will also mean that potentially I will need to take these tiles off. I should by a good lump hammer.

So i see. Hence why i said about adhesive

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Was it actually a tiler you used or a multi trade ?

 

[Kilo]

He trades as a tiler. It is in his trade name that he does tiles and mosaics. However, he states on his profile that he also does bathroom fittings and plastering.

 

[Dave]

He trades as a tiler. It is in his trade name that he does tiles and mosaics. However, he states on his profile that he also does bathroom fittings and plastering.

Ok , let us know how you get on..

 

[Kilo]

It may take some time because the small claims court process can take two months + if it ends up being looked at by a judge. However, I will keep you posted as I wanted to give my splash back a go and will probably end up reboarding the bathroom myself. Thats if I am found not guilty, so to say Thanks again Dave.

 

[TSCTILING]

My humble 2 pence worth is that you should never snag before grouted. A lot of your points are extremely petty, I agree about mitres but lots of lads fix them straight. If I had some one measuring my joints lines I'd pull off just for that. Bad cuts around plumbing fair enough, not the best tilers, fair enough, but you cannot justify not paying. You can hold a retention but my friend if you aren't paying the lads you're a wrong en! 22yrs in the trade still going strong

 

[Kilo]

I like to think I listen to opinions that attempt to deconstruct my argument in the case (sometimes very likely) that I am wrong. In this case, have you not seen the trim? There is bare metal showing from the cut and they don't line up. Plus the tiles are not flush with them. Maybe my points are petty, and i did debate on wether i should pay for what was good. Problem is they went straight to court and have refused to mediate. Which is not cool beans with the consumer act. How can you say i should pay the full amount when they have used the wrong adhesive and preparation for the floor. Maybe a bad comparison, but its like a nurse administering the wrong meds or a mechanic putting the wrong oil in a car. I don't want a tile falling on my head in a few years time.

 

[roadking]

He may well have used the proper adhesive but just mixed it in a ready mix bucket 🤷‍♂️

 

[Dave]

He may well have used the proper adhesive but just mixed it in a ready mix bucket 🤷‍♂️

True 😂 didn’t think if that.

 

[TSCTILING]

I like to think I listen to opinions that attempt to deconstruct my argument in the case (sometimes very likely) that I am wrong. In this case, have you not seen the trim? There is bare metal showing from the cut and they don't line up. Plus the tiles are not flush with them. Maybe my points are petty, and i did debate on wether i should pay for what was good. Problem is they went straight to court and have refused to mediate. Which is not cool beans with the consumer act. How can you say i should pay the full amount when they have used the wrong adhesive and preparation for the floor. Maybe a bad comparison, but its like a nurse administering the wrong meds or a mechanic putting the wrong oil in a car. I don't want a tile falling on my head in a few years time.

I didn't say pay in full. But you have to appreciate everyone's got to eat, but saying that if they choose to go court before attempting to rectify the issues then I'd have to say in all honesty it's not the best way to come to a fair resolution for both parties. It's hard to say about tiling as I don't know what they faced
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Mate maybe you burnt their heads out with the numbered snags. 70 odd in Sharpie... Lol poor c-#ts, they're probably just staring into space drooling after tiling your bathroom, mate there's nothing worse than some ____ writing all over your tiles before you've finished. You know, now and then I leave a tile in I know I'll have to change coz I don't want the rest slipping. Mate have a good heart and pay them some dough. Hold £250 back for pipes, you won't win in court as you didn't specify in writing you want mitred trim etc, fairs fair pal. It ain't my opinion or yours, it's a universal fact. Pay them some money regardless of court. They have bills too and kids to feed
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You seem a cool guy and I guess you feel it ain't right to give them nothing. A court will recognise your fairness if you pay and hold a retention and give them 7 days to rectify or you'll do so at their expense. All the best ✌🏻

 

[Kilo]

I didn't say pay in full. But you have to appreciate everyone's got to eat, but saying that if they choose to go court before attempting to rectify the issues then I'd have to say in all honesty it's not the best way to come to a fair resolution for both parties. It's hard to say about tiling as I don't know what they faced
[automerge]1605285857[/automerge]
Mate maybe you burnt their heads out with the numbered snags. 70 odd in Sharpie... Lol poor c-#ts, they're probably just staring into space drooling after tiling your bathroom, mate there's nothing worse than some ____ writing all over your tiles before you've finished. You know, now and then I leave a tile in I know I'll have to change coz I don't want the rest slipping. Mate have a good heart and pay them some dough. Hold £250 back for pipes, you won't win in court as you didn't specify in writing you want mitred trim etc, fairs fair pal. It ain't my opinion or yours, it's a universal fact. Pay them some money regardless of court. They have bills too and kids to feed
[automerge]1605286061[/automerge]
You seem a cool guy and I guess you feel it ain't right to give them nothing. A court will recognise your fairness if you pay and hold a retention and give them 7 days to rectify or you'll do so at their expense. All the best ✌🏻

You kept saying snags m8. Snags are what I had when I moved in. I had about 70 of them around the whole property. I'm sure you know, but a snag means a minor defect that can be rectified. A dodgy tile stuck to a piece of plasterboard is not a snag and 80 plus pics of tiles that are stuck to the wall and cannot be snagged are what I had to compile for a defense after the 'tiler' decided to leave after i pointed out that their right angle cuts were wrong. I didn't want to waste my time, but I didn't realise how many wonky and badly cut tiles there were until after. Because, guess what I'm not a tiler and I put my confidence in them to do it right. BTW they are my tiles, as I payed for them. I don't appreciate people f%&*()ng them and then demanding an invoice on the same day. BTW I have a six month year old and I need to pay the bill to have another tiler to take off the tiles, put new walls up and do the job right. The adhesive was written as part of the quote as was the BAL uncoupling mat which have both been confirmed by the manufacturers as not right for the job. All the best to you too.

 

[bsc ceramics]

I feel you do have some fair points but some are a little ott, i think you should have let them finish first and grout. (did they ask for payment before they finished?) The pipe cuts are bad but around the door ect once grouted should look fine, even if it needs a thin silicone bead, think most mitre trims these days as looks better but what they did is not wrong, im sure if you talk calmly with them you can get it sorted, you want your bathroom done and they want to get paid, its worth a try...

 

[Kilo]

I feel you do have some fair points but some are a little ott, i think you should have let them finish first and grout. (did they ask for payment before they finished?) The pipe cuts are bad but around the door ect once grouted should look fine, even if it needs a thin silicone bead, think most mitre trims these days as looks better but what they did is not wrong, im sure if you talk calmly with them you can get it sorted, you want your bathroom done and they want to get paid, its worth a try...

Thanks BSC. What points do you think I have over boarded on? I get that the edges can be grouted and siliconed, it just feels like the problems are being covered up. Re the mitre I did ask the dude before hand if he neeeded the round trim, quadrants etc. I said id like the trim cut at an angle. He said fine. He asked for payment on the same day that he left. I hadn't made any complaints until a couple of days before when I started to see areas which were not right to me. I punched them a text stating I would have a formal response to their invoice the next day. I emailed them some of the concerns. Since then they said that their work is 'up to British Standards' and that they would take legal action, despite my asking them to come back on two occasions via email and one via a signed for letter.

 

[eddcottee]

In my opinion mate -

The tiles at the edge of the door frame are irrelevant as there should be a neat silicone bead run down there anyway, so they'd end up looking good and you wouldn't see the 1 or 2mm variance down those edges.

Pipe cuts are rough, so should be re-done and the chipped tile is unfortunate and should be replaced.

The rough cut within the window niche is a little rough and should have been rubbed down smooth but other than that it looks like a reasonable and acceptable job to me on the face of it.

However - T and G floor should have been over boarded with cement boards.

IF tubbed adhesive has been used, the whole lot should be ripped out and replaced, but you'd need to know that first. So it's a tough one really and perhaps because of finding about the adhesive and floor problems, that's why you've looked so far into the rest of the jobs and ended up picking holes in it.

Shame he's taken it straight to court. Seems like a rather silly and unprofessional approach to me.

Be interested to see what happens with this one.

 

[Kilo]

In my opinion mate -

The tiles at the edge of the door frame are irrelevant as there should be a neat silicone bead run down there anyway, so they'd end up looking good and you wouldn't see the 1 or 2mm variance down those edges.

Pipe cuts are rough, so should be re-done and the chipped tile is unfortunate and should be replaced.

The rough cut within the window niche is a little rough and should have been rubbed down smooth but other than that it looks like a reasonable and acceptable job to me on the face of it.

However - T and G floor should have been over boarded with cement boards.

IF tubbed adhesive has been used, the whole lot should be ripped out and replaced, but you'd need to know that first. So it's a tough one really and perhaps because of finding about the adhesive and floor problems, that's why you've looked so far into the rest of the jobs and ended up picking holes in it.

Shame he's taken it straight to court. Seems like a rather silly and unprofessional approach to me.

Be interested to see what happens with this one.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. I won't submit more photos to illustrate the cuts and grout lines unless there are requests! I think the main point now is something I ironically would not have picked up had the trader tried to negotiate or mediate and that is the addy and mat used. I have a quote for the materials for both floor and walls which takes me to the rocatex and BAL website for the specs if i copy and paste into google. Consequently, although not tiling related, the copper pipe that leads from basin was fitted by the tiler and is 10mm. Its feeding a mixer shower and from reading the specs on that, it needs to be a minimum of 15.

I really would have preferred it to go the other way. But I am obligated to respond to the claim. I will be getting an NHBC inspector in and they will independently spec if the job is certifiable from a new build perspective and submit their report to the court. If he states that the work is sound then who am I to argue.

 

[bsc ceramics]

Thanks BSC. What points do you think I have over boarded on? I get that the edges can be grouted and siliconed, it just feels like the problems are being covered up. Re the mitre I did ask the dude before hand if he neeeded the round trim, quadrants etc. I said id like the trim cut at an angle. He said fine. He asked for payment on the same day that he left. I hadn't made any complaints until a couple of days before when I started to see areas which were not right to me. I punched them a text stating I would have a formal response to their invoice the next day. I emailed them some of the concerns. Since then they said that their work is 'up to British Standards' and that they would take legal action, despite my asking them to come back on two occasions via email and one via a signed for letter.

As i said round the door etc is not an issue but the pipes do need sorting, the square edge
trims can be mitred. Did they grout it all?

 

[Kilo]

As i said round the door etc is not an issue but the pipes do need sorting, the square edge
trims can be mitred. Did they grout it all?

They left before grouting.

 

[bsc ceramics]

Well that wont look good on them in court, i think with the photos you have you should be ok, cant see anyone saying this is a good job. these guys are not tilers so it may be a case of moving on and starting again and you will then be able to see what addey was used.
Get someone to recommend a tiler and ask them lots of questions and get references of other work they have done. Let us know how you get on..

 

[Kilo]

Just an update for anyone interested. I have taken the tiles off myself and the plumbing is now rectified (before and after pictures attached.) The external wall was dot and dab which was a chore to take off boards from. I did take a few pictures of areas of concern during removal of the tiles. Nothing too major, but my main concern was the tiles in shower compartment. The tiler had screwed gyroproc onto the plasterboard directly, which I understand is OK with regs. However, they screwed into the joint between the two boards, which is why I could just pull the tiles and board straight off the wall. Not good, when one of these tiles weighs about 4 kg. There are also areas where it looks like the adhesive was applied over the 3mm limit for premixed adhesive and hadn't appeared to set in places. I have plasterboard measured and ready to fit and will update after final decision with court and new tiles are on.

 

[bsc ceramics]

If the addy has'nt set that shows its the wrong one they used..
Good luck and let us know how you get on.