tiling over paint

[smokey1234x]

i have done loads of jobs in bathrooms were the complete bathroom is painted.most of my customers supply the addhesive grout etc.to tell the truth i hardly ever even look to see what type it is.but reading some of these threads its starting 2 make me think twice,is any1 else in the same boat

 

[Leatherface]

I ALWAYS...........
advise the customer that the paint has to be sanded - this is to give the tiles and adhesive a good key to the wall - look at removing at least 60 to 90 % of the paint dependant upon how heavy the tiles are.
I have a variable speed grinder with velcro sanding pads - makes light work of the job - although very dusty ( allow a full days labour for an average bathroom )

Just to note - imagine sticking a piece of sellotape on an imulsion painted wall and then removing it after a few hours !!!!!!!!! - the paint comes off on the tape, well that's what's gonna happen with the tiles, the adhesive stickes to the paint and not the wall !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BEWARE

 

[smokey1234x]

well that makes sense,but what am really asking is does any1 else tile over paint as i do

 

[tiler tom]

I check the soundness of the paint ie. it is not loose and flakey and score through to existing. Difficult thing is telling the customer the incresed work in guarenting a sound finished result when Joe Bloggs follows you up with no problem and for x no of pounds less.

Nice change of picture Leather you look less a mass murderer now with your new hairstyle.

 

[penno]

No i don't tile over a solid bed of paint, have tiled over paint but have give it a good score and a good rub with a wire brush first. Remember if you tile on paint then it is basically the paint holding the tiles on, could quite easily fall off (and probably will.

 

[Leatherface]

well that makes sense,but what am really asking is does any1 else tile over paint as i do

Thought I had answered your question mate - yes I will tile over paint - but only once it has been sanded - the amount of sanding required depends upon how well the paint is keyed to the wall and how heavy your tiles are .....

100mm x 100mm biscuit tiles, a little sanding required

600mm x 400mm travertine - a lot of sanding required
----

I check the soundness of the paint ie. it is not loose and flakey and score through to existing. Difficult thing is telling the customer the incresed work in guarenting a sound finished result when Joe Bloggs follows you up with no problem and for x no of pounds less.

Nice change of picture Leather you look less a mass murderer now with your new hairstyle.

Scoring in my opinion makes no difference if the paint is emulsion or flaky - just makes it more likely to de-bond from the wall !!!!!!!!!!

 

[smokey1234x]

well if u sand the paint off,then your not tiling over paint,am i wrong

 

[Dan]

He'll tile over the sanded paint then.
----
Emulsion breaks back down to a wet paint (sort of) when it comes into contact with moisture. Which is why if you lick your finger and rub it on an emulsion painted wall your finger will get paint on it.

If you get paint on your finger, you need to be scoring the walls to get a good key.

Imagine if your tiles fell off on somebody in the bath, and imagine if they were really young, a child perhaps and it seriously harmed them. You're hitting them on the head with the weight of tiles and adhesive and grout in god only knows what sorts of quantity. The whole wall could fall off.

 

[Leatherface]

dan

sorry, scoring in some cases makes sod all difference !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the emulsion paint is not adhered very well to the wall, the wall needs sanding, no doubt about it.
i have seen walls that have been emulsion painted onto fresh plaster where the whole wall of paint just peels off with little or no effort !!!!

 

[brian c]

Leatherface you will find this out that there are a lot of newbies and sometimes it is hard to get your answer over as i have also found,eh tysfoot.lolscrew it tysfoot m8.psml.

 

[Leatherface]

Think I get ya.
I have made myself a promise not to DISS newbies, only give advice that they can heed if they wish. So .........................

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

 

[versatilene]

Thought I had answered your question mate - yes I will tile over paint - but only once it has been sanded - the amount of sanding required depends upon how well the paint is keyed to the wall


If you apply logic to this then all a lot of sanding does is make the paint layer thinner and more likely to peel away from the wall. So you must either just remove grease and dirt and key the surface ONLY (take as little as poss off) or take it all off

 

[TONY]

Will tile over paint but only if it is sound and I always score first and sand

 

[grumpygrouter]

Just a thought here guys, with emulsion paint that goes back to a "liquid" state when wet, could it be that a lot of tilers now-a-days are using rapid set cement addy and doing so just "damps" the paint surface long enough to make it unstable and then the addy is set to an unstable surface. With bucket stuff, White Star for instance, the addy is wet for much, much longer has more time to "soak through" the emulsion and bond to the substrate behind.

Only reason I pose the question is that I have removed tiles from painted bathroom walls and it has come away with large amounts of substrate attached to the tile. The addy has quite obviously adhered to the plasterboard through the paint in most places though not all. Not sure of the reason for this.

Thoughts on this guys?

Grumpy

 

[Perry]

a grey area this they say you should remove emulsion paint a little bit of a difficult job that but what ever use your only sticking it to the paint & not the wall have seen lots of builders put a mist coat ready for the tilier
:stupid: big time :stupid:

 

[grumpygrouter]

Another problem with removing emulsion paint, certainly in the area I live is that most of the more modern buildings are timber frame with stud partions. Taking paint off plasterboard without removing the paper surface is nigh on impossible. It is my understanding that it is the paper wrap that helps give the plasterboard its strength and this is partly where the tiles are sticking to, not just the plaster underneath.

Grumpy

 

[Perry]

youve got it grumpy i think sometimes the best you can do is to follow
Dan the Man
:grouphug:

 

[DHTiling]

As long as you rough it up enough for your primer to impregnate then no probs...i use a wire brush and this works a treat....

 

[Fekin]

This is just another case of people doing things differently and has been the case for many many years.

People have been tiling onto paint for decades, and "in my view" they have been fine for the most part.
I have been to look at quite a few bathrooms that have been tiled onto paint and the tiles have been hard to remove from the walls.
One bathroom I did an estimate on a week or so ago, had been tiled onto paint, only dot n dabbing the tiles in the corners with minute amounts of adhesive, the dried adhesive blobs were around a ten pence piece in size max, and the customer noticed some grout had fallen off from around a tile, so as he was applying some new grout to the tile, it fell off, bringing away 2 more with it, that's how I could see how little adhesive had been used to fix them onto a painted wall.
Now you could say, theres the proof that tiles shouldn't be fixed to paint, never mind only having maybe 3% adhesive coverage, but these tiles had been on the walls for over 25 years.
Im only saying this as some people tend to claim that if something is done a certain way, they can guarentee it will fail in a very short period of time, where it dosen't in all cases, yes it might in some, but most probably won't in most.

Now Im not saying who is right and who is wrong, and yes in a perfect world we wouldn't tile onto paint, but in some cases it's the difference between getting a job and not getting it if a customer has had tiles on a painted wall for 20 years, then we come around and say it all has to be sanded off other wise they will fall off within the month... they just don't buy it.

The job I looked at, the customer is happy with me saying I will need a day to sand down and prime the walls, but a lot wouldn't be.

It's like using PVA as a primer.

It's probably been used millions of times, with only a few examples of the tiling failing compared to the amount that hasn't failed because of it, but it's still not best to use because it can make it fail.

So, in a nutshell, while tiling onto paint isn't ideal, the chances of it failing as quickly as some would say it will is probably very small, "in my view"

 

[frogeye]

Seeing this from a novices point of view - when I tiled my bathroom 15 years ago ( now in bits and being done 'properly' - bloody grout lines!) I was unaware that you couldn't tile over paint - so I did. Looking at the wall now that I have removed the tiles I can see that for some reason I had decided to score the wall, but then I applied pva.

The tiles on the painted area were an absolute nightmare to get off - the old adhesive had to be chiseled off. It would have been a B & Q waterproof type.

My only suggestion is does it have anything to do with the type of paint used? The stuff I used was the dulux bathroom paint - resistant to mould etc. The tiles on walls in the wet areas fell off with a bit of help - pva and water ingress?, but the other parts that had been pva'd and were free of water, resisted all the gentle attempts and needed a chisel hammer drill. This resulted in tile and plaster skim leaving the wall.
Before I removed the tiles there was no evidence that there was a major problem with tiles dropping off
Sully

 

[Leatherface]

Thought I had answered your question mate - yes I will tile over paint - but only once it has been sanded - the amount of sanding required depends upon how well the paint is keyed to the wall


If you apply logic to this then all a lot of sanding does is make the paint layer thinner and more likely to peel away from the wall. So you must either just remove grease and dirt and key the surface ONLY (take as little as poss off) or take it all off

Sorry, the way I sand with a variable speed grinder and coarse sanding discs REMOVES 90% of the paint easily. That is usually more tan adequate. On some occasions if necessary I go the extra mile and remove all the paint.
When I say sanding ... to clarify I mean sanding down, to the surface below ( not rubbing a bit off )

 

[smokey1234x]

unless i see the paint flecky or damp am always going 2 tile over it,no point changin now 5 years later,never had a single tile fall off a wall. touch wood

 

[Leatherface]

Sorry chaps, but I do a lot of natural stone nowadays.
I agree that for many standard ceramic tiles, not much sanding required. BUT I would never risk sticking 600 x 400 Trav or marble tiles onto an emulsion painted wall. TOO HEAVY !!!

I know you have all seen the table of weights for plaster, plasterboard, plywood etc etc....

Would like to hear anyone come up with the weights acceptable for emulsion paint ??? If you phone the technical dept for most adhesive manufacturer, they would almost always advise you to "mechanically abrade" the paint prior to tiling.

Not being a " textbook arsehole" here - just like to do the job so there can be no comebacks in the future !! All my work is on recommend - want to keep it that way !!

 

[stev1904]

Paint only becomes a problem for Tiling on, when it has been penetrated by water. Emulsion and Silk are both water based which means it will eventually soften and peal. This can be seen in any partially tiled shower/bath room were the steam has affected the skin of the paint. This is why you get flaky paint and condesation a foot or so up from the shower tray, top of bath, condensation areas around the toilet cistern and windows, internal corners and where the wall meets the ceiling. The integrity of the paint is also lost if it is not prepped properly before the next coat, i.e. sanding down, primed or undercoat. In which case the adhesion of the tiles on the wall, will most certainly be affected.
I’ve used steam strippers once or twice in the past to get to the wall surface, when I’ve had time for it to dry that is. Other than that a sharp scraper and/or a wire brush does.

Hope this helps

 

[Leatherface]

Do It Your Own Way........

Or The Right Way..........

 

[paul67]

I've just come on to this forum, on the 2 on suites that i just tiled in my new house , my better 1/2 changed her mind on the tile ,1 was painted walls tiles came off easy i mean scrapped off, the 1 without paint were a right pain to get off :furious3: . Used topps ready mix for bath and kitchen to put tiles on they were 100 mm sq.

 

[Leatherface]

The top and bottom of this is " take each job on it's own merits"
There are many different types of paint and wall. Some paint may be bonded to the wall very well. Others may flake off very easily.
Use your judgement.

 

[Dan]

Some of the threads in the tiling forum that have had a lot of views are being bumped up into current discussion. Just walk on by if it's not your flavour right now. Perhaps it'll help somebody out one day, and they become members, and then they post a thread, and professional tilers respond, and then you learn something from them...? Maybe?

 

[GDog01]

Staggering how many ‘tilers’ on here are not considering one vital ingredient. The adhesive being used! NONE of the major brands will guarantee adhesion on a painted wall. So they might stick and they might be OK. NONE of the work is guaranteed. Well done. Whether you agree with this or not is completely irrelevant. No matter how many jobs youve done and nothing has gone wrong…..everyone one of them has NEVER been guaranteed. 😂 excellent!! Leather gave you get pass marks. Sound like a professional.