What was the construction of the tray? is it suitable for smaller mosaic tiles? they look like the ones from topps which are about 40mm or so. A fair few wet room trays aren't suitable for smaller mosaic tiles due to point loading so it may all be a non starter anyway. But the answer to your original question is yes you can remove tiles, slow going, very slow going with a grinder you can cut down to remove material but i wouldn't advise this be done by anyone but a competent tiler.
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"Demand a refund" is easy to say. HOW? How do you demand a refund? There is nothing apart from the threat of naming the tiler that I have in my power to use in order to demand a refund. The best I can hope is that he will willingly return and fix the work, assuming that it can be fixed.
"Rip it up and start again" is also an easy thing to suggest...However that would involve an additional £1,000 (probably more) in costs.
At this stage, being realistic, all I can do is ask the tiler that did the work to rectify the problem. There is no other option.
Thats completely baseless and unhelpful. I have in no way been rude, or in need to be told to "get over myself". I certainly have not been aggressive. Forums quite often seem to get off track, and result in mostly unhelpful answers requiring people to sift through to find something useful. In my previous post I was merely pointing out that it is easy to suggest throwing money away, when the money in question is not your own. I very well may have no option but to "start again", and I take all of the suggestions in and and appreciate all of the opinions, which, as you point out, I asked for.
Although to be fair, my initial question was "Can it be fixed" and I think it took about 12 posts to get an answer on that one. But thats par for the course.
Please advise how I have been aggressive?
I (personally) have never tiled a wet room, and thus was unaware if there was a "technique" for removing the tiles without causing damage to the tray. My concern was for the plastic infil panel which houses the drain. This is obviously thin and brittle and held in with a waterproof adhesive to the main tray. You say the chance of removing the tiles is 50/50...That is an answer. Thank you. I guess it is just a case of get him back; get him to remove the tiles, while I closely inspect the work, and should there be any damage to the tray, request him to replace it, or at the least provide a full refund. Fair enough. That is the answer which I suppose I was looking for.
No. It wasn't "Sam the man" but I've never met a tiler who works for anything other than cash.
At this juncture I am being realistic. Ask him to put it right and take it from there. Personally, I don't think I see how it can be fixed now without removing the full floor. What annoys me the most is that the one reason I didn't do this job myself is because a wet room needs to be done right and I was scared of making an expensive mistake. While the tiling may not be perect, I can live with it. I know the tanking underneath IS perfect. But he, who has done 80 wet rooms, and had used these exact tiles before, made a mistake at the single most important and crucial part of the job....and it's now causing me sleepless nights.
I've tried gently prying up the tiles; there is no movement. I'm worried about cracking the plastic drain or citing through the wet board. And if he does come and fix it I won't know for a long time if that joint it still waterproof.
My plan is, assuming he agrees to come back; inspect the tray closely after he has removed the tiles and make a judgement call.
Personally I don't think small claims court is an option. It only leads to more loses and frustration with no guarantees odd a favorable outcome.
Excellent thread, not the most complex of threads, but an enjoyable one to read, by the way, I don't get out much.
After re-reading many of the posts I think I understand the question.
We're wanting a definite answer, non of this advise lark, a simple Yes, or No.
A yes or no, based on a total stranger being able to do a slow and steady tile removal, bash, chisel, scrape all adhesive away, type of job. Then obviously re-fit correctly with absolutely zero damage.
My answer is:
No.
Thanks.
Let's not start this again!
No; I was not looking for a definitive yes or no. I was looking for the opinions from people in the trade whom I assume would have encountered a mistake or two before as to if the tiles can be removed without causing damage to the integrity of the shower tray. ..and if they can, what would be the best way to (edge your bets) remove them. I was going on the assumption that there might be a "trick of the trade" to get the tile up and fix the job without a complete removal.
I dont think it should be too far fetched to come to a tiling forum to look for that sort of advice?
I'm not getting ahead of myself. I'd rather not threaten anything. I'll start by along him to "do his best" and to"rectify the problem". He hasn't replied to me yet, but it IS a bank holiday weekend. He may willingly come back and be able to fix it.
This has caused me a few sleepless nights. As I said I was just going to find out of there was a trick of the trade to fix this sort of mis take. Thanks
Ok, I missed that angle of questioning. So did every other reader.
I think you need a discussion with the 'Tiler' and come to a decision between you. If he's confident, great. If not, more discussion.
Not sure on the relevance of it being cash tbh.
That isn't helpful. It's so easy to say "I could do better" without justification. We are often not defined by the good work we do but how we fix our mistakes.
I have never seen a "perfect" tiled job and I have looked at loads during this process.
If he comes and fixes his mistake I can't berate him for it.
I do however agree that when he returns, should he manage to remove the tiles, not only will I replace the waterproofing myself but I will provide him with a bag of 2mm spacers to get the tiles around the drain square and explain the importance of cutting the tiles evenly. That part of it isn't to my standard.
The payment method is not relevant. He never told me he only worked for cash. I chose to pay him that way. Do you take card payments then?
What about the job, apart from the tiles surounding the drain is not professional? What would you do differently? Specifically?
I don't think I was the first one to bring up the payment method.
I should correct myself...I have never met any tradesman who PREFERS to be paid in anything but cash. And someone who has pride in their work, it should not be a problem.
You say it is not a professional job. Please explain? What would you do differently? I will point it out to him if/when he returns and suggest he could have done better. Because apart from the tiles surrounding the drain, I don't see any other issues.
The only other issue I have, is that he ran the border tiles up to the wall, where I would have preferred a border of square tiles as when we go over the top with a skirting tile it is going to hide the first edge of the border.
But apart from that it looks ok to me. I welcome specifics? Thanks
As for not being a tiler...(Apparently) he has 20 years experience and a gold cscs card (whatever that is).
He made a mistake. We all do it. I am hoping he will be able to fix it, and why would I not give him the chance to....no one else is going to come in and fix this without ripping everything up, starting again, and probably costing in excess of £1,000. So I have nothing to lose by letting him try, assuming he is willing.
It is difficult to find a professional tiler. I asked for recommendations; never got any. I got this recommendation of the internet, much like this forum. Of course you never know who to trust. You pays your money and takes your chance. Im certainly not looking to provoke anyone.
2.All lips you can easy see on the pictures
3.All holes in grout
4.All grey adhesive mixed with white grout
5.Small black piece in border right hand in the middle(20 years experience?)
6.Poor cleaning
7.No spaces all around drain
8.Just my opinion,not necessary wrong but for me the border need to be the same(right hand is just half border)
I'm pretty sure is more then what we see in the pictures,but that is enough to affirm ''This is not a tiler!''
Discuss tiler made a mistake tiling a wetroom tray in the Tanking and Wetrooms area at TilersForums.com.
L
LM
I wouldnt want that cowboy back, I'd demand a refund plus costs!
If your happy that you have tanked it properly yourself with the fact that you've used a system from a manufacturer that can be regarded as one of the most advanced out there then you should have no problem removing the poor cuts around the grate. My confidence in this comes from the fact that the tiling is so poor that I doubt the tiles in situ have been well fixed.
If your happy that you have tanked it properly yourself with the fact that you've used a system from a manufacturer that can be regarded as one of the most advanced out there then you should have no problem removing the poor cuts around the grate. My confidence in this comes from the fact that the tiling is so poor that I doubt the tiles in situ have been well fixed.
S
SpItal_Jeff
"Demand a refund" is easy to say. HOW? How do you demand a refund? There is nothing apart from the threat of naming the tiler that I have in my power to use in order to demand a refund. The best I can hope is that he will willingly return and fix the work, assuming that it can be fixed.
"Rip it up and start again" is also an easy thing to suggest...However that would involve an additional £1,000 (probably more) in costs.
At this stage, being realistic, all I can do is ask the tiler that did the work to rectify the problem. There is no other option.
O
Old Mod
I've been watching this thread from the start, and whilst Mark's (impish) comments about you being stressed had some foundation, you are now beginning to push your welcome here.
This is an excellent forum with excellent advice, I urge you not to be aggressive in the manner that you post.
There is absolutely no need for it, we all have opinions, and they may well differ from yours.
As the Americans might say, "get over yourself!" We're trying to help, we see this everyday of the week, whether it be here or on the job, and we DO know what we're talking about.
After all, that's why you're here isn't it?
So I'm sorry if you don't like all the opinions directed at your problem, take the ones you like, and suck the rest up!
Admin.
This is an excellent forum with excellent advice, I urge you not to be aggressive in the manner that you post.
There is absolutely no need for it, we all have opinions, and they may well differ from yours.
As the Americans might say, "get over yourself!" We're trying to help, we see this everyday of the week, whether it be here or on the job, and we DO know what we're talking about.
After all, that's why you're here isn't it?
So I'm sorry if you don't like all the opinions directed at your problem, take the ones you like, and suck the rest up!
Admin.
S
SpItal_Jeff
Thats completely baseless and unhelpful. I have in no way been rude, or in need to be told to "get over myself". I certainly have not been aggressive. Forums quite often seem to get off track, and result in mostly unhelpful answers requiring people to sift through to find something useful. In my previous post I was merely pointing out that it is easy to suggest throwing money away, when the money in question is not your own. I very well may have no option but to "start again", and I take all of the suggestions in and and appreciate all of the opinions, which, as you point out, I asked for.
Although to be fair, my initial question was "Can it be fixed" and I think it took about 12 posts to get an answer on that one. But thats par for the course.
O
Old Mod
Then you need to re back the posts, I am one of several that has seen aggression in your manner.
So my post is hardly baseless.
But the question you ask is impossible to answer, if you as educated as you appear to be, then you know that removing the tiles without damaging the waterproof membrane you installed is exactly 50/50 yet you're searching for a definitive answer.
It doesn't exist, only conjecture.
And we have to assume that you installed it correctly.
If forums give you hump so much because it takes TWELVE posts to get an answer, firstly you must have visited a LOT of forums to come to that conclusion, and secondly why come back!
That's rhetorical!
And yes, your manner is aggressive as far as we are concerned, but that's subjective I suppose.
So my post is hardly baseless.
But the question you ask is impossible to answer, if you as educated as you appear to be, then you know that removing the tiles without damaging the waterproof membrane you installed is exactly 50/50 yet you're searching for a definitive answer.
It doesn't exist, only conjecture.
And we have to assume that you installed it correctly.
If forums give you hump so much because it takes TWELVE posts to get an answer, firstly you must have visited a LOT of forums to come to that conclusion, and secondly why come back!
That's rhetorical!
And yes, your manner is aggressive as far as we are concerned, but that's subjective I suppose.
S
SpItal_Jeff
Please advise how I have been aggressive?
I (personally) have never tiled a wet room, and thus was unaware if there was a "technique" for removing the tiles without causing damage to the tray. My concern was for the plastic infil panel which houses the drain. This is obviously thin and brittle and held in with a waterproof adhesive to the main tray. You say the chance of removing the tiles is 50/50...That is an answer. Thank you. I guess it is just a case of get him back; get him to remove the tiles, while I closely inspect the work, and should there be any damage to the tray, request him to replace it, or at the least provide a full refund. Fair enough. That is the answer which I suppose I was looking for.
S
SpItal_Jeff
No. It wasn't "Sam the man" but I've never met a tiler who works for anything other than cash.
At this juncture I am being realistic. Ask him to put it right and take it from there. Personally, I don't think I see how it can be fixed now without removing the full floor. What annoys me the most is that the one reason I didn't do this job myself is because a wet room needs to be done right and I was scared of making an expensive mistake. While the tiling may not be perect, I can live with it. I know the tanking underneath IS perfect. But he, who has done 80 wet rooms, and had used these exact tiles before, made a mistake at the single most important and crucial part of the job....and it's now causing me sleepless nights.
I've tried gently prying up the tiles; there is no movement. I'm worried about cracking the plastic drain or citing through the wet board. And if he does come and fix it I won't know for a long time if that joint it still waterproof.
My plan is, assuming he agrees to come back; inspect the tray closely after he has removed the tiles and make a judgement call.
Personally I don't think small claims court is an option. It only leads to more loses and frustration with no guarantees odd a favorable outcome.
Martyn Leeds
TF
Excellent thread, not the most complex of threads, but an enjoyable one to read, by the way, I don't get out much.
After re-reading many of the posts I think I understand the question.
We're wanting a definite answer, non of this advise lark, a simple Yes, or No.
A yes or no, based on a total stranger being able to do a slow and steady tile removal, bash, chisel, scrape all adhesive away, type of job. Then obviously re-fit correctly with absolutely zero damage.
My answer is:
No.
Thanks.
S
SpItal_Jeff
Let's not start this again!
No; I was not looking for a definitive yes or no. I was looking for the opinions from people in the trade whom I assume would have encountered a mistake or two before as to if the tiles can be removed without causing damage to the integrity of the shower tray. ..and if they can, what would be the best way to (edge your bets) remove them. I was going on the assumption that there might be a "trick of the trade" to get the tile up and fix the job without a complete removal.
I dont think it should be too far fetched to come to a tiling forum to look for that sort of advice?
D
Dumbo
I never work for cash . Perhaps you could threaten him with the tax man . I'm sure he would love an in investigation.
S
SpItal_Jeff
I'm not getting ahead of myself. I'd rather not threaten anything. I'll start by along him to "do his best" and to"rectify the problem". He hasn't replied to me yet, but it IS a bank holiday weekend. He may willingly come back and be able to fix it.
This has caused me a few sleepless nights. As I said I was just going to find out of there was a trick of the trade to fix this sort of mis take. Thanks
Martyn Leeds
TF
Ok, I missed that angle of questioning. So did every other reader.
I think you need a discussion with the 'Tiler' and come to a decision between you. If he's confident, great. If not, more discussion.
Not sure on the relevance of it being cash tbh.
S
SpItal_Jeff
That isn't helpful. It's so easy to say "I could do better" without justification. We are often not defined by the good work we do but how we fix our mistakes.
I have never seen a "perfect" tiled job and I have looked at loads during this process.
If he comes and fixes his mistake I can't berate him for it.
I do however agree that when he returns, should he manage to remove the tiles, not only will I replace the waterproofing myself but I will provide him with a bag of 2mm spacers to get the tiles around the drain square and explain the importance of cutting the tiles evenly. That part of it isn't to my standard.
S
SpItal_Jeff
The payment method is not relevant. He never told me he only worked for cash. I chose to pay him that way. Do you take card payments then?
What about the job, apart from the tiles surounding the drain is not professional? What would you do differently? Specifically?
Your right the payment method isn't relevant so why did you first bring it up? Why did you say you have never met a tiler that doesn't just work for cash?
You seem to be another person coming on here just to provoke people when you don't get to hear exactly what you want to hear. Collectively you will not find more knowledge about tiling anywhere else, yet you don't seem to want to hear any of it.
Legally you do have to give this guy the chance to rectify what he has done. But would you want to? you say there isn't anything wrong with the rest of the install, but there is...... it's not good tiling at all. He isn't a tiler.
You seem to be another person coming on here just to provoke people when you don't get to hear exactly what you want to hear. Collectively you will not find more knowledge about tiling anywhere else, yet you don't seem to want to hear any of it.
Legally you do have to give this guy the chance to rectify what he has done. But would you want to? you say there isn't anything wrong with the rest of the install, but there is...... it's not good tiling at all. He isn't a tiler.
S
SpItal_Jeff
I don't think I was the first one to bring up the payment method.
I should correct myself...I have never met any tradesman who PREFERS to be paid in anything but cash. And someone who has pride in their work, it should not be a problem.
You say it is not a professional job. Please explain? What would you do differently? I will point it out to him if/when he returns and suggest he could have done better. Because apart from the tiles surrounding the drain, I don't see any other issues.
The only other issue I have, is that he ran the border tiles up to the wall, where I would have preferred a border of square tiles as when we go over the top with a skirting tile it is going to hide the first edge of the border.
But apart from that it looks ok to me. I welcome specifics? Thanks
As for not being a tiler...(Apparently) he has 20 years experience and a gold cscs card (whatever that is).
He made a mistake. We all do it. I am hoping he will be able to fix it, and why would I not give him the chance to....no one else is going to come in and fix this without ripping everything up, starting again, and probably costing in excess of £1,000. So I have nothing to lose by letting him try, assuming he is willing.
It is difficult to find a professional tiler. I asked for recommendations; never got any. I got this recommendation of the internet, much like this forum. Of course you never know who to trust. You pays your money and takes your chance. Im certainly not looking to provoke anyone.
We're only trying to help you if this hits the fan......which it may do...
If you didn't get a written quotation, paid cash without getting a receipt , then you don't have a leg to stand on to take the matter further.
If he comes back and puts it right....then problem solved.......let's wait and see.
There's no magic way of removing the tiles except very carefully. I would use a hammer and small screwdriver grinding the joints and even the tile into smaller pieces would help.
If this fails to work, destroys the tray, wrecks the wpm or the drain beyond repair .....them it's a complete rip out and start again...
If you didn't get a written quotation, paid cash without getting a receipt , then you don't have a leg to stand on to take the matter further.
If he comes back and puts it right....then problem solved.......let's wait and see.
There's no magic way of removing the tiles except very carefully. I would use a hammer and small screwdriver grinding the joints and even the tile into smaller pieces would help.
If this fails to work, destroys the tray, wrecks the wpm or the drain beyond repair .....them it's a complete rip out and start again...
1.All cuts around the drain prove lack of experience
2.All lips you can easy see on the pictures
3.All holes in grout
4.All grey adhesive mixed with white grout
5.Small black piece in border right hand in the middle(20 years experience?)
6.Poor cleaning
7.No spaces all around drain
8.Just my opinion,not necessary wrong but for me the border need to be the same(right hand is just half border)
I'm pretty sure is more then what we see in the pictures,but that is enough to affirm ''This is not a tiler!''
Last edited:
N
neil forrest
Interesting discussion.
Firstly I can understand your frustration at not getting the advice you are looking for more easily. It's easy for everyone to be critical and patronising of the the work when you've tried to do the right thing and bring someone in to do a job properly. There's always an element of risk involved when hiring a tradesman. Even when they come recommended. Then factor in the customer isn't a tiler so can't easily spot some of the poor tiling on display and is therfore understandably defending it.
To answer to the question is straightforward.
Can they be removed? Yes of course they can.
Will it cause damage? You won't know until you try.
Either way you lose nothing by trying.
Suggested removal technique? As stated. Multi-tool the grout joints and try gently chap out the offending tiles.
In regards to the quality of tiling?
The fact the cuts around the trap don't allow instalation of the drain cover tell you all you need to know about the tiler. Anyone who makes such a basic mistake is ether not a tiler or an absolute cowboy.
There are other issues apparent in the pics that have been highlighted. Some if the spacings and pitch of the tiles look crude to say the best.
Personally can't see this guy retuning to fix. Hope you can get it corrected to a point that your happy with.
Firstly I can understand your frustration at not getting the advice you are looking for more easily. It's easy for everyone to be critical and patronising of the the work when you've tried to do the right thing and bring someone in to do a job properly. There's always an element of risk involved when hiring a tradesman. Even when they come recommended. Then factor in the customer isn't a tiler so can't easily spot some of the poor tiling on display and is therfore understandably defending it.
To answer to the question is straightforward.
Can they be removed? Yes of course they can.
Will it cause damage? You won't know until you try.
Either way you lose nothing by trying.
Suggested removal technique? As stated. Multi-tool the grout joints and try gently chap out the offending tiles.
In regards to the quality of tiling?
The fact the cuts around the trap don't allow instalation of the drain cover tell you all you need to know about the tiler. Anyone who makes such a basic mistake is ether not a tiler or an absolute cowboy.
There are other issues apparent in the pics that have been highlighted. Some if the spacings and pitch of the tiles look crude to say the best.
Personally can't see this guy retuning to fix. Hope you can get it corrected to a point that your happy with.
S
SpItal_Jeff
Thanks. Says he will come back this week and will fix it. Says is time consuming but not difficult.
You are right that it seems to be such a basic mistake. I'm even annoyed at myself for not realising this before the tiles went down. ...but I am not a tiler. I consists having a go but thought better of it in case I screwed it up.
There is another issue. At the moment I can't tell if the frame of the drain is the same height as the tiles. ...again as a professional this should have been a basic check.
But as you point out. ...I have nothing to lose by letting him try.
Thanks.
You are right that it seems to be such a basic mistake. I'm even annoyed at myself for not realising this before the tiles went down. ...but I am not a tiler. I consists having a go but thought better of it in case I screwed it up.
There is another issue. At the moment I can't tell if the frame of the drain is the same height as the tiles. ...again as a professional this should have been a basic check.
But as you point out. ...I have nothing to lose by letting him try.
Thanks.
D
Dumbo
Watch out for him trying to build up tiles around the drain if the drain is higher than the tiles as the water won't drain very well if you do not have the correct falls . Oh and by the way if I get offered cash I tell them I would prefer it if I could send them an invoice and if they could pay by bacs please .
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