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J

Jayney71

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Hi...

I'm so confused!
I need to choose some tiles for an en suite - the same for the walls and floor. The walk-in shower will be at one end with a partial glass screen but no divide on the floor or tray so (I've been told) it's a wetroom.

There's lots of advice I've been given but don't know what's true so hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about can help:

Is it ok to use ceramic on the (shower) floor?... Are they waterproof? Will they break if I drop something?
What makes a tile suitable for wetrooms? Hardness/non-slip/sealed/"R rating"(???)
Is porcelain the best option?... and would any porcelain tile be ok for the wetroom?

If anyone can help I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
Jayne
 
OP
O

Old Mod

Porcelain is a good choice for a wet room, ceramic not so much.
A lot of ranges will come in both polished and matt finish.
And ANY tile is not suitable.
But what's just as, if not more important, is what's beneath.
Incorrect prep, and it won't matter what you have installed.
 
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59
Porcelain will probably give you your best choice in a floor and wall combination (possibly with a matching mosaic over the former if you want the extra grip). Ceramics perfectly fine for walls it mainly depends what "look" you are hoping to achieve. Personally I would have a little browse of some images and see what ideas you like and then take them to a showroom with your room dimensions and ask them to recreate the feel of the looks you are after.

As @3_fall says its the work underneath that is super important and don't just rely of Check a Trade and the likes to get ideas of their work, word of mouth and asking if there is any work you can see/past customers you can talk to will help you out massively!
 
OP
N

NZ_Tiler

A cermaic tile with an absorption rate of less than 6% is fine in wet areas.

Porcelain is less than 0.5%.

Good tiles will have this info on the box.
Great tile boxes will even tell you it's slip rating.

Barefoot wet area you want minimum r10.

If your tile is glazed you want on the floor a PEI rating of 2+. A PEI 1 may scratch and mark a bit easy although for a domestic bathroom it's generally very light foot traffic.

If the tiles are laid well they'll take impact better than most flooring

Personally I'd go for a fullbodied porcelain with a matt finish.
 
OP
T

Tile Shop

R-Ratings are complete arse and totally, without question, the most pointless test for slip resistance ever created and have no significance on real world situations!

The Germans decided to perform a test (DIN 51130:2004) by tile a ramp, covering it in motor oil, then gradually tilting the ramp until the poor bloke standing on it with his safety boots falls off. The higher the ramp goes without him dying, the higher the R number. Can anyone tell me what the relevance of that is when picking out a tile for a wet room? Perfectly ok if a punter is looking to tile a constantly moving ramp covered in oil, but irrelevant to any other application know to man.

There is a second test they do, same ramp, same bloke (when he's out of hospital), but barefoot and slightly soapy water (DIN 51097:1992). The result gives you a category rating of A (dangerous) to C (safe). That's more like it, getting closer to real life. So for a wet room, you are looking for a CAT C tile.

When looking through a list of CAT C tiles, you usually tend to find most have an R11+ rating, but not all. So if you want to use that as a rough comparison you can but its not set in stone, so that is not to say all R11's are suitable for wetrooms. Only way you'll know for sure if its ok, get a sample tile or two, take it home, wet it with soapy water, get your socks off and walk over it, dance on it, take a run and jump at it. If you live, its suitable :)

We are going to start moving away from R and Cat ratings and every tile we currently stock or will be importing is going to be PTV tested (The UK HSE's recommended test method for commercial and public areas). A pendulum test that simulates footwear and barefoot slip resistance in both wet and dry conditions. Far more realistic and much easier to understand and no reason why, to be safe, this is advised for domestic areas. If it scores less than 36, not safe, if it scores 36+ safe. Simplez!

So for example you could have a tile that scores 70 in the dry and 24 in the wet, so fine for predominantly dry conditions, useless for wet. Or 42 dry, 40 wet...... safe for both.
 
OP
N

NZ_Tiler

R-Ratings are complete arse and totally, without question, the most pointless test for slip resistance ever created and have no significance on real world situations!

The Germans decided to perform a test (DIN 51130:2004) by tile a ramp, covering it in motor oil, then gradually tilting the ramp until the poor bloke standing on it with his safety boots falls off. The higher the ramp goes without him dying, the higher the R number. Can anyone tell me what the relevance of that is when picking out a tile for a wet room? Perfectly ok if a punter is looking to tile a constantly moving ramp covered in oil, but irrelevant to any other application know to man.

There is a second test they do, same ramp, same bloke (when he's out of hospital), but barefoot and slightly soapy water (DIN 51097:1992). The result gives you a category rating of A (dangerous) to C (safe). That's more like it, getting closer to real life. So for a wet room, you are looking for a CAT C tile.

When looking through a list of CAT C tiles, you usually tend to find most have an R11+ rating, but not all. So if you want to use that as a rough comparison you can but its not set in stone, so that is not to say all R11's are suitable for wetrooms. Only way you'll know for sure if its ok, get a sample tile or two, take it home, wet it with soapy water, get your socks off and walk over it, dance on it, take a run and jump at it. If you live, its suitable :)

We are going to start moving away from R and Cat ratings and every tile we currently stock or will be importing is going to be PTV tested (The UK HSE's recommended test method for commercial and public areas). A pendulum test that simulates footwear and barefoot slip resistance in both wet and dry conditions. Far more realistic and much easier to understand and no reason why, to be safe, this is advised for domestic areas. If it scores less than 36, not safe, if it scores 36+ safe. Simplez!

So for example you could have a tile that scores 70 in the dry and 24 in the wet, so fine for predominantly dry conditions, useless for wet. Or 42 dry, 40 wet...... safe for both.


IMO a ramp test with an actual person walking back and forth on a slippery surface IS a fine test. A pendulum is trying to imitate what? A FOOT! How well does a pendulum work on a uneven surface? Both tests have their downfalls.

36 what? 36μ?
 
OP
T

Tile Shop

IMO a ramp test with an actual person walking back and forth on a slippery surface IS a fine test. A pendulum is trying to imitate what? A FOOT! How well does a pendulum work on a uneven surface? Both tests have their downfalls.

36 what? 36μ?
Yes, a foot. And it's not a fine test, its wrong, but lets go with it. I have time :)

I'm not saying that any test is a 100% accurate real world simulation, but the PTV is far closer to a simulation, than a guy in safety boots on a tilting ramp covered in oil. But on the other hand if you like taking showers in oil, in boots with your falls in the tray being at a 30 degree slope, you crack on.

Take a pool surround for example. Just wet, not covered in motor oil and you are not likely to be wearing rubber soled safety boots and its not tilted. Its flat. Its no comparison! How can you be telling me an R rating has any bearing on how slippery that floor will be in bare feet with just water?

The Munro PTV tester has a weighted arm and a selection of slider pads made of different grades of rubber that have been designed to simulate a walking leg, with a variety of shoe soles (one of these will be graded by the HSE as "sensible footwear") and bare feet. The pendulum swings and is calibrated to hit the tile slowing down and swing back up to a scale, giving the result in PTV, a scale that has been invented purely for slip risk assessment purposes. This can be anywhere from zero upwards but the HSE following many tests have deemed that 36+ is the "safe line" and anything less will be moderate to dangerous. and also, don't forget, two test results, one dry test, one wet test so easier to see a suitability for a particular condition.

Now, taking your uneven floor as example, which way are you walking? up the slope or down the slope? is it slanting down from the right or the left, because obviously we know that walking up a slope, because of the angle of impact is going to be more resistant in itself than the angle you'll be impacting at if it was sloping away???? Maybe the german man should also stand sideways on the ramp too, just in case.

Sorry if that was sarcastic, no offence intended, but you see my point. R Ratings are useless. It doesn't make sense. The initial PTV is calculated on a flat surface for initial tests to give the result, but the tester does not define the angle the tile will be laid at, thats down to the end user, and the angle will slightly alter the slip potential, but at least they had something better to go on when picking the tile out. The pendulum tester is portable and can taken out on site so any floor can be also tested after fixing, at any angle if there are concerns. They will do 3 directional tests and take the average value to give the on-site PTV.

Also at the end of the day, if there is a claim in court for an injury from an accident or slip, the court will rule the floor as safe or not safe, based on the HSE requirements not the R ratings.

Need a cup of tea now :)

(Edit. If you read this before I edited it, I said, "Standing Still". This was incorrect and although they are restricted, they are only able to step within a short sample area....... still wearing grippy boots though, and still continuously pouring oil on it, meaning it is not representative of end use and as such is a poor indicator of slip resistance.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
N

NZ_Tiler

Yes, a foot. And it's not a fine test, its wrong, but lets go with it. I have time :)

I'm not saying that any test is a 100% accurate real world simulation, but the PTV is far closer to a simulation, than a guy in safety boots on a tilting ramp covered in oil. But on the other hand if you like taking showers in oil, in boots with your falls in the tray being at a 30 degree slope, you crack on.

Take a pool surround for example. Just wet, not covered in motor oil and you are not likely to be wearing rubber soled safety boots and its not tilted. Its flat. Its no comparison! How can you be telling me an R rating has any bearing on how slippery that floor will be in bare feet with just water?

The Munro PTV tester has a weighted arm and a selection of slider pads made of different grades of rubber that have been designed to simulate a walking leg, with a variety of shoe soles (one of these will be graded by the HSE as "sensible footwear") and bare feet. The pendulum swings and is calibrated to hit the tile slowing down and swing back up to a scale, giving the result in PTV, a scale that has been invented purely for slip risk assessment purposes. This can be anywhere from zero upwards but the HSE following many tests have deemed that 36+ is the "safe line" and anything less will be moderate to dangerous. and also, don't forget, two test results, one dry test, one wet test so easier to see a suitability for a particular condition.

Now, taking your uneven floor as example, which way are you walking? up the slope or down the slope? is it slanting down from the right or the left, because obviously we know that walking up a slope, because of the angle of impact is going to be more resistant in itself than the angle you'll be impacting at if it was sloping away???? Maybe the german man should also stand sideways on the ramp too, just in case.

Sorry if that was sarcastic, no offence intended, but you see my point. R Ratings are useless. It doesn't make sense. The initial PTV is calculated on a flat surface for initial tests to give the result, but the tester does not define the angle the tile will be laid at, thats down to the end user, and the angle will slightly alter the slip potential, but at least they had something better to go on when picking the tile out. The pendulum tester is portable and can taken out on site so any floor can be also tested after fixing, at any angle if there are concerns. They will do 3 directional tests and take the average value to give the on-site PTV.

Also at the end of the day, if there is a claim in court for an injury from an accident or slip, the court will rule the floor as safe or not safe, based on the HSE requirements not the R ratings.

Need a cup of tea now :)

(Edit. If you read this before I edited it, I said, "Standing Still". This was incorrect and although they are restricted, they are only able to step within a short sample area....... still wearing grippy boots though, and still continuously pouring oil on it, meaning it is not representative of end use and as such is a poor indicator of slip resistance.)
Ok
 
OP
O

Old Mod

Gotta admit, I've seen some thread closers on here, but I think that has to be one of the best!

s4456.gif
 
OP
J

Jayney71

Thanks for all your replies... I enjoyed reading them, especially about the German man in boots (anything else?!) on a ramp covered in oil. (Assume it's not him who's covered in the oil )

So, other than slipperiness, is any porcelain tile ok for floors and walls? One website (tile giant) specifies a tile and/or grout sealer.... is this necessary? Does it mean the tile and/or grout will leak if I don't use it?

Finally (for now!), can anyone recommend a good tile shop (or website that provides samples)? I'm in the SW, south of the M4, not far from Bath ☺

Thanks, everyone ☺
Jx
 
OP
W

WetSaw

A grout sealer is to protect the colour of the grout. The room as you describe it should be waterproof before you tile it.
 

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