Tiles de-bonding from new house - Tile Advice

Tileadvice · Oct 22, 2018

Sorry, should be more exact.

We have a Air to Water, Ecodan system. Not sure how to describe the UFH, it is wet (pipes filled)

We built with a contractor therefore the only part we did outside the contract was tiling. The plumber and electrician turen on the heating to 15C then up by 2C over 5days to reach 25C for 2weeks. It was off for 2weeks prior to tiling. The tiler asked turn it on to 10C then to 15C at 1week after as he finished the ensuite (actually he used same Larsen batch for this) . He refused to tile the other two bathrooms as he found the bathroom tiles too hard (good quality). We ended up getting a different local tiler for the other 2bathroom a few weeks later ( diffetent larsen batches). That being said all bathrooms are fine! This makes me think concrete!

Yes Larsens took a sample but analysis was looking at the how the adhesive & Primer stuck to the tile when lifted. The report only concludes that their products did not bond to the floor by look and feel. No science based testing done! Everyone (tiler, builder, Larsen rep, tile shop, engineer, concrete rep) commented on the smell under the tile! No-one know what/How it was caused, likely to be the issue here..

We also got the concrete rep to take a floor sample and report confirms its integrity & strength.

The tiler discussed how the floor was clean, dust free, ready for tiling. He applied Larsen Acrylic Primer allover the ground floor. Used Lasen flexible rapid set adhesive. 75x75 tile. Adhesive covered the full tile ( no blobs)

The reputable building contractor discussed how they apply the same floor and UFH (even the type/plumber) to majority if their builds. But feels it is tile/Larsen product failure is the cause

Old Mod · Oct 22, 2018

Thank you, that’s an excellent description, and it makes it easier to eliminate certain aspects of the procedure.
No conclusion right at this moment, but it can now be researched for possible causes.
Then hopefully we can direct you as to what steps can be taken next to help determine the underlying cause of the failure.
Obviously we can only speculate as to the cause of the failure as we're trying to conduct an investigation on line and not in person.
But at least with the new information you have provided it will go a long way to help us suggest a course of action.
Alternatively you have the option of contacting the TTA (tile assoc) and they will carry out a full investigation, but obviously that will incur costs.

If the primer used is applied to thickly or is a too strong mix for the substrate, it can skin, in essence you are then just adhering the tiles to the primer and not the actual substrate beneath.
Just something to consider for the moment.

Dumbo · Oct 23, 2018

I doubt in any way shape or form it is a tile failure as adhesive is bonded to tile . Most adhesive manufacturers will send samples to their laboratories for testing rather than just looking at or feeling the sample maybe you should push for this . The solvent smell would suggest something is contaminated and nobody is putting their hand up to it.
I wonder if you were to take up another tile and if it smells of solvent again do a moisture test to see if their is some sort of liquid contamination in the screed .

Old Mod · Oct 23, 2018

Determining the type of floor screed you had installed is now becoming more important.
Many screeds now require some kind of mechanical abrasion before Tiling can commence, including cementitious screeds, if they’re liquid.
These are sprayed with a curing agent on completion and this leaves a waxy residue which must be removed.
I can’t imagine any regular primer adhering to such an unprepared surface.
A large number of screed companies return a week or two later to abraid the surface as part of the original install, however, in my experience they never complete this to a standard which is sufficiently high enough for Tiling.
The screed companies inspection would return a satisfactory result if they only reported on its integrity and strength.
I’m not suggesting they’re being underhanded, but it wouldn’t be in their interest to report the presence of the curing agent, especially if they were responsible for removing it in the first place.
In their defence tho, if the area inspected was free of contamination then their test results would return a positive report.
I’m only speculating of course, and it would be a strange coincidence too, as I have to deal with one of these screeds in the coming weeks, that’s the only reason I have a little knowledge of the procedure.

Tileadvice · Oct 23, 2018

Thank you for your help - you can see where I am at this point in time. Messy one!!

I must say I was extremely surprised too, the report is very weak as I was expected a conclusion based on data..not look and feel. What about the Primer - Is it possible for it to "go-off" or become contaminated which you make bonding fail? Yes - it was on the adhesive but it has to go somewhere - right?

I am trying to source a lab that that can do that chemical analysis like you mentioned. I am hearing they need to know what we are testing for specifically eg what trace elements etc

Dumbo · Oct 23, 2018

You could possibly buy the adhesive and primer again and get them to test like for like and also maybe a screed sample also

Tileadvice · Oct 23, 2018

I did suggest this - to take up a timber floor in another room on the ground floor and replicate the tiling event. No-one thought it was a good idea only me at the time. We we would not have the same Batches of course bit it would be test of concrete/floor base. Larsen mentioned they do not keep a retain of batches sold (i find this hard to believe as I thought every company would keep a sample of product manufactured - for customer complaints!

3_fall - i will need to find out what screed it is. The floor preparation was also discussed at the visit by Everyone - the tiler was happy with the floor on inspection prior to tiling. I belived the level of abrasion was ok (rough surface). What exact questions should I be asking??..so I can find answers

Dumbo · Oct 23, 2018

I was meaning send adhesive sample from floor and primer sample from floor with some new adhesive and primer to lab so they can test like for like to see if there is any difference between the different samples

Old Mod · Oct 23, 2018

From what I’ve understood an outside contractor was brought in to install your screed, most companies have a preferred system they use, whether it be cementitious or gypsum based, and every one has its unique characteristics, this determines the level of prep.
I’m not suggesting for one minute your tiler is at fault, but not every screed is prepared in the same way.
Without product information, we can’t be sure prep was correct, which will ultimately often cause failure of the finished floor.
Sometimes a visual inspection without all the relevant information can be misleading.

Glynn · Oct 23, 2018

Any chance of some pictures of the removed tile and substrate surface?

Ajax123 · Oct 23, 2018

Based on your initial post this seems a really straight forward failure to me. you say the adhesive came off with the tile and the primer was attached tot he adhesive leaving a clean sub floor. This means simply that the primer had failed to stick to the floor. There are generally only 2 reasons why this happens. 1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply form a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key. 2. too much moisture in the sub floor causing lack of absorption of the primer into the subfloor with the same result. A third option which I used to see a lot but not so much these days is the lack of dilution of a primer that required dilution. This is less common these days as most primers do not require dilution.

the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete. It is unlikely to have been anything on top of the subfloor as true solvents tend to evaporate quickly when surface bound.

I think you are trying to lay blame where it doesn't lie as for me this is a simple preparation/pre tiling treatment issue.

Tileadvice · Oct 24, 2018

Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).

2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities

Ajax123 · Oct 24, 2018

Tileadvice said:
Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

If the primer has not penetrated into the screed it will simply form a skin over it's surface and some away on the back of the adhesive. This is a visual test. If there is primer on the adhesive and on the floor this is usually caused by primer degradation causing coheive faokure withjn the primer. often due to inappropriate primer e.g PVA. What I usually see in cases of poor preparation is patches of primer and small bits of adhesive stuck to the floor but most coming off Inn the tile.

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).

Suitable moisture levels for tiling can only be assessed by testing using a suitable testing equipment e.g. hygromerer. If no test was carried out who can possibly say if it was dry enough.

2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

Depends entirely on the screed type and composition. There are so many screeds in the market these days that without knowing which it was it is impossible to say if polymer modifiers, waterproofers, water reducing agents, air entrainers, or what ever else should be there or not. The supplier should be able to give this information. These can be added at supplier level of or site level.

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities

Whilst not impossible it is unlikely given the relatively stringent quality processes used by CE marked companies that it is a product fault.

As I said based on your description in the first post it sounds like prep or pre installation error. Strange smells sometimes occur. In my experience, which whilst fallible is not inconsiderable, these are usually a red herring... mind you that would also smell fishy...

Often the route cause is difficult to,pinpoint as it is usually a combination things.

Who do you want to take the responsibility for this issue? What exactly are you looking for?

Tileadvice · Oct 25, 2018

Honestly, I just want to find out why the tiles de-bonded and how it happend, the responsible person would then be identified. I dont have a preference, but if I dont find answers...then it will most likely fall to me ( no hand, act or part in it...only paying for the job)

I do understand it is difficult to pinpoint, but you do have good suggestions to be fair and I would like to explore them...if I knew how and what to look for?

Tileadvice · Oct 25, 2018

If I could find an investigator would be ideal!

Tiles de-bonding from new house - Tile Advice

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