Shower enclosure problems

[Sedated]

Hi all

Late last year we had our en suite refurbished. As part of that we had a new shower enclosure fitted. The siliconing around the shower I did myself. I siliconed all the outside and also the inside uprights only, not the bottom of the frame inside.
The first time the shower was used water was leaking from the corners outside the enclosure through the tile grout and onto the floor. As I knew the silicone I had done was sound I wondered if the fitter had siliconed inside the uprights before instillation? He assured me that he had and also said I should have siliconed 2 inches along the bottom corners of the shower frame, the bottom bit of the frame in the corners before it gets to the bottom runner bit. I said that you aren’t supposed to silicone inside a frame (especially the bottom) as water should drain back into the shower.
Anyway we got the fitter out and he said he had sealed behind the uprights but I wasn’t convinced and asked him to take the shower down. Sure enough behind the uprights were not siliconed. After a full day getting the silicone off the shower frame, tray and walls. I let the walls and floor dry out thoroughly for a week before attempting to silicone behind the uprights prior to the frame going up.
I did notice that the tiles on the wall came down really tight onto the shower tray touching in places and there was not much room to get silicone actually in the gap. I would have thought the expansion gap between the tiles and tray would have to be at least a couple of mills to make sure the silicone gets well into the gap. Surely the thinner the gap the less the silicone can stretch?. Anyhow I used a small nozzle and forced as much in the gaps behind where the uprights were going to fix, squeezing it in with the gun, pushing it in with my finger several times., and obviously overlapping onto the wall and tray.
I was still concerned about the stretchiness of such a small amount of silicone in what could be a place where there potentially could be so much movement. I couldn’t over lap too much on the wall and tray as the frame had to go over that silicone and I didn’t want it disturbed in the fitting process. The fitter returned and started to put up the frame, before he put up the uprights he did put a bit of silicone on the bottom of the uprights before he fitted the frame to the wall. One the frame was up I then was left with the task of all the siliconing.
The shower was ok for a week but today the problem has returned. I spent ages making sure that the silicone behind the uprights was done to the best of my capabilities. Is it possible that the silicone behind the uprights could have failed as there wasn’t a big enough gap to seal properly in the first place? Now that the shower has been used and the tray flexing slightly and not enough silicone to stretch with the movement? Or even the tray rubbing on the tiles and wearing through the small bit of silicone. As I said the tiles were tight up to the tray. Or is the fitter right that I should have sealed the little bits inside along the bottom corners of the shower frame, the bottom bit of the frame in the corners before it gets to the bottom runner bit as shown in the picture.
But then again if its sealed behind the uprights then this shouldn’t matter.
Below is where the fitter suggested sealing

[blocko]

I never seal the inside of shower cubicles, only the outside. If it is leaking from anywhere, then I suggest it is creeping through the joint where the bottom (horizontal) frame meets the vertical (wall fixed) part of the frame. You can run a very thin bead across the join on the outside of the shower.

Were the shower walls tanked at all? It is possible that water is seeping through the grout and finding its way out at the lowest point. Any sign of leaks elsewhere? (in rooms behind or below shower?)

Oh, Welcome too!

[Sedated]

Thanks for that.

The shower was already built up when bought (Bathstore) it was just a matter of attaching U shaped channeling on the wall, offering the frame over it and screwing to.

The area you mention seems dry and so does all outside siliconing (passed the Tissue test)

The grout does look sound as does all the siliconing where the tiles meet the tray.

No the walls wernt tanked and frankly I was unsure of the fitters methods of tiling. The tiles were 60x 30 tiles and he wasnt putting adhesive on the wall but buttering them. I recon that can cause more chance of water getting behind them.

[blocko]

The only way then would be to run shower and wait to see exactly how & where it is seeping from. Any photos of the frame from outside?

[Sedated]

I'll take some later.

Before and after I do this...Tonight Im going to get the shower head and spray directly in the the corner, just to make sure it is the seal there that is at fault, and not water from elsewhere finding its way out there.

[Sedated]

Heres the pics
Before directing shower spray inside corner of shower

10 mins later. see damp on wall

picture to show siliconing and where damp/wet is

[Sedated]

I aimed the shower head directly in the corner of the shower. Heres the results..


after 10 mins

[Mike]

is the bottom left red arrow dry or is that water near it i can see?

[Sedated]

Pointed shower head directly at problem corner and blasted...

Before

After ten mins (got worse later!) You can see water appearing behind tiles and showing through grout

After, silicone from outside shower. non of my siliconing outside failed, all dry.

[Sedated]

Oops sorry posted same again
No Mike the bottom left red arrow is dry silicone but underneath that right at the bottom, where to tiles join the tray from the floor could be wet underneath It does look darker. the wet is not on the tiles on the wall only creeping up the grout.

[Mike]

well it looks like the water is getting in between the tray and bottom row of tiles and coming out where it's wet. was the tray siliconed before tiling? you may have to remove the shower cubicle again and remove the bottom row of tiles. let it dry out and repair if necessary then silicon the tray in then retile leaving a 2mm gap in the bottom for silicon to adhere to

[Stewart]

I always install my uprights a couple mm above the tray. This allows for a full beed of silicone below the vertical post and the tray. You should always bed the base of the vertical into wet silicone imo to create a water-tight seal as this is where 99% of showers leak.

[Sedated]

well it looks like the water is getting in between the tray and bottom row of tiles and coming out where it's wet. was the tray siliconed before tiling? you may have to remove the shower cubicle again and remove the bottom row of tiles. let it dry out and repair if necessary then silicon the tray in then retile leaving a 2mm gap in the bottom for silicon to adhere to

Oh no! I suspected as much!

[blocko]

I agree

[Sedated]

I always install my uprights a couple mm above the tray. This allows for a full beed of silicone below the vertical post and the tray. You should always bed the base of the vertical into wet silicone imo to create a water-tight seal as this is where 99% of showers leak.

Stuart Thanks
If you reread my first post the fitter forgot to put any silicone between the tile/tray/upright fitting! And when he took it out at my insistance, the gap between tile and tray was miniscule and hard to get sealant into. I think its failed cos of that reason.

[Mike]

do you have any spare tiles to replace? i'd be getting the tiler back to do it and foot the bill but i wonder if he'd do a proper job second time round

[jay]

Lack of good prep work (waterproofing)as stated by Mike and were the tiles meet the floor tiles outside the shower it should be silicone the same color as the grout for movement

[Sedated]

Thanks for the answers fellas.

I know the only way to be sure is to strip out like mike said. Im very concerned about the effects this will have on the other tiles/grout etc surely all that upheaval of taking 4 large tiles down will damage the grout surrounding. Also what about the damage to the shower cubicle it took some pulling to get it off last time thats gotta weaken the frame and seals on the glass.

[timeless john]

Was the tray fitted on top of the floor tiles and could it be the tray waste which is leaking through.
Did the plumber fir the tiles - his fixing method is incorrect - dot and dab.
The wall and floor tiles should be joint bonded assuming they are the same tiles.

[Mike]

the shower enclosure should come out reasonably easy provided you've cut through the silicon seal in the bottom. you need to cut through the grout lines of the affected tiles before trying to remove, a fein/bosch multitool is the best tool for this job but you can do it with a stanley knife but be careful with it.

[Mike]

Was the tray fitted on top of the floor tiles and could it be the tray waste which is leaking through.
Did the plumber fir the tiles - his fixing method is incorrect - dot and dab.
The wall and floor tiles should be joint bonded assuming they are the same tiles.

you could try blocking the waste and showering the problem corner again, that would show whether the leak is from the tray or the waste

[Stewart]

From the pictures you've posted, I would say it's definetly leaking from the bottom of the verticle post and needs stripped out and refitted again. To check the drain, you could just run the shower hose directly into the drain.....


Created on iPhone.....

[Mike]

From the pictures you've posted, I would say it's definetly leaking from the bottom of the verticle post and needs stripped out and refitted again. To check the drain, you could just run the shower hose directly into the drain.....


Created on iPhone.....

yeah i guess that's easier but would work either way

[jay]

From the pictures you've posted, I would say it's definetly leaking from the bottom of the verticle post and needs stripped out and refitted again. To check the drain, you could just run the shower hose directly into the drain.....


Created on iPhone.....

Were the vertical bar meets the base channel looks like a pool of water running back to the corner

[AliGage]

I've looked at the photo's a few times over and i have to ask the question. The tiles are cut down to the tray aren't they? Or were the walls done first and the tray pushed into the corner? The photo to, unless it's my eyes playing me up looks like it's the later.

[kilty55]

has the tray been sealed can i ask?

[Stewart]

Were the vertical bar meets the base channel looks like a pool of water running back to the corner

That looks like a reflection from the screen to me Jay.....


Created on iPad.....

[jay]

could be

[jay]

Siliconing2.jpghere

[Mike]

I've looked at the photo's a few times over and i have to ask the question. The tiles are cut down to the tray aren't they? Or were the walls done first and the tray pushed into the corner? The photo to, unless it's my eyes playing me up looks like it's the later.

the tray was fitted first but the op has said the tiles were cut tight to the tray so no gap for silicon to get in