flat, vertical and horizontal tiling

[tilemania]

i've been browsing this forum and am beginning to take in just some of the fantastic info that is available here in abundance (thanks for such a great resource).

i've read some of the threads on buttering tiles vs spreading adhesive on walls and i'm assuming that most of you spread the adhesive on the walls? i've tried this a few times but i simply can't get the 'flatness' that i want, whether it's on a wall or a floor. in my (very limited) experience a wall is rarely straight enough to give a flat finish using a toothed trowel, and TBH, i struggle even on a perfectly flat newly boarded surface.

i should probably go on a course, and when i get some time i probably will, but until then i'd like to ask you guys what your preferred method of laying tiles is? if you're a 'spreader', then how do you go about getting a flat plumb or level surface when the surface itself isn't true, or do you ignore the flat aspect and follow the contours of the wall?

are there many 'butterers' here? i'd love to hear from you too

i'm a 'hands on' project manager myself, which usually means that i do a lot of the finishing on jobs myself. this includes mainly tiling, cabinet fitting and accessories fitting, but i also fit our kitchens and sometimes skirting and architrave. basically, those jobs that i have sometimes had others to do but i haven't been happy with their finish...

anyway, here's a sample of a recent job we did. where we tiled, we ripped out the old plasterboards and went back to the original stud work and replaced with tile board. the boxing behind the WC and bidet are also lined with tiling board. i've heard some guys here suggesting that a job is usually completed in a week, but on this job i got nowhere near that. in this case we also took up the chipboard flooring, replaced with ply and and a further layer of tiling board before tiling. we also rearranged the sanitary ware and swapped the bath for a shower (this is an ensuite). finally, all the non tiled surfaces were replastered and decorated.

just looking for some general feedback i guess, to make sure i'm not missing anything obvious.

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[timeless john]

It is generally a combination of both - serrated trowel on the wall with a flat back of adhesive on the tile.
But the main message IMHO would be to make the substrate perfect to start with and the tiling just gets better and better.
Job completion times will always be guides and could often contain exaggerated time scales, the only criteria I have is to get paid, get more work from it, and hopefully leave a good job.

[Dave]

As above preparation is the key but if you are butter fixing to overcome slight substrate deviations then make sure you don't exceed to adhesives max depth.. tensile strength is the key and the last thing you want is lack of it.. 100% contact on wet area walls and solid bed on floors..

oh the joys of tiling.. not easy is it..

[Rich]

When people say back butter they usually mean that they use the flat edge of the trowel to butter the back of the tile before pressing/twisting them into the notched adhesive bed. This makes it easier to get 100% coverage of adhesive behind the tile. Some people use the notched trowel to spread adhesive on the wall/floor and then on the tile as well but IMO this makes it easy to leave air pockets/voids behind the tiles. It is crucial to get 100% coverage on all floors and wet areas.

As for making up unlevel walls/floors, this is where the "art" comes in and the only way of perfecting it is practice, the speed will come. The pics look nice mate and as long as the customers are happy, you have used the correct materials on the correct substrate and you can make money out of it, then you are on the right track and just try to improve on every job you do

[Dave]

I call using the flat edge back skimming, and for me buttering is serrating the tile backs or buttering them like cake icing to achieve coverage.

[Rich]

Fair point Dave, your right. I do both, either a skim or like you say butter. I will sometimes use the notched trowel on the back of the tiles as well but usually on floors as I find it easier to press the adhesive together and get 100% coverage.

[swanman]

I call it flat backing

[tilemania]

thanks for the replies, and thanks for the pics comments. for me taking pictures is just as much of an art as laying tiles, or any other job where skill is required. getting the right angle, composition and light will make your pictures look great and will make your work look even better than it is

going back to the buttering discussion, i hardly ever spread adhesive on the surface to be tiled. like i said above, i just can't get the tiles flat enough, though i'm now understanding that i should be spreading on the wall and the tile? i don't even use a toothed trowel . i use a small trowel or even a pallet knife depending on tile size, and make sure that the edge of the tile gets enough adhesive for the bit of wall being tiled. then i spread some on the 'inside' of the tile - enough to get the coverage specified on the adhesive bag (i always use powder adhesives).

the thing is, however you spread the adhesive, if you spread the same amount of adhesive for each tile and the surface being tiled isn't flat, then by definition the tiles won't be flat either. plastering the walls beforehand to straighten them isn't ideal either judging by the posts i've read here, as plastered walls take less weight than non plastered or lined with tile board.

so i usually start out by finding the point on the wall that is most forward, and the one that needs most filling and then tile accordingly, judging the amount of adhesive that each tile will need to get a flat finish.

regarding wet areas and floors, are you all sure that you get 100% coverage in these areas? and why is it so essential? i'm pretty sure if you could theoretically lift each tile on a job without damaging the adhesive, you would surely see air gaps? for wet areas i do my best to get 100% coverage, but as i doubt that it's possible i make sure that the edges of tiles get enough adhesive so that at the very least the outer edge of each tile is sealed. for floors i try and get a solid bed but again i doubt i've achieved it yet, though i've never used SLC before and have tiled floors the same way i do wet areas. for the next job i will definitely try SLC which will hopefully make getting a flat surface and a solid bed easier.

[Rich]

It is possible to get 100% coverage, in fact this is stated in British standards Im pretty sure. Definitely get yourself some decent notched trowels, IMO you cant hope to get a decent coverage without them. A half moon floor trowel and back buttered tile should give you 100% coverage as long as you press and twist the tile into the adhesive properly.SLC helps but like everything there is an art to this as well.

[tilemania]

It is possible to get 100% coverage, in fact this is stated in British standards Im pretty sure.

so is 100% coverage different to solid bed or is it the same thing?

i still think if you're tiling an uneven wall with heavy tiles (which nearly all my jobs are these days), you need to judge the adhesive on a per tile basis rather than spread the same amount of adhesive for each tile and on the back of each tile. but i assume this is what most of you do right?

what about large format tiles (600x600 and larger). are any walls straight enough that you can apply the same amount of adhesive to each tile and get a flat finish?

[Rich]

No, not really (I wish walls were that flat!) the bigger the tile - the bigger the trowel and the more important the back buttering. Solid bed and 100% coverage is the same thing. I see what you are saying but I would still recommend getting some goos quality trowels. I only spread enough for a couple of tiles at a time and then build out/back butter accordingly. If the wall is that far out, then it should be sorted out before tiling.