Help!: How much work involved in taking up badly fitted tiles?

[MissH]

Hi,
I wonder if anybody can help please? A couple of years ago I had some building work done to my kitchen, new window and patio doors and an ok-ish job was done. The builder said he could do tiling as well. The kitchen floor is hardboard but he said he would put a plywood down first so it would be level and stable. The depth he used was 4mm. Soon after laying, cracks started appearing and I called him back. He lifted some of the tiles and reapplied (using most of the the spare tiles I'd purchased but was going to return) but the problem got much worse with over 50% of the tiles lifting and grout cracking. The builder said I would always have problems with the floor as it wasn't a solid base though I wished he'd told me before he started work. I actually reapplied a few of the tiles myself and they actually seem pretty solid - could it be the mix he used wasn't right? When he did teh job it was nearly Christmas and I feel he really rushed it. The tiles themsleves slope off at an angle. Unfortunately I was made redundant (though have since found work) and as a single parent I haven't been able to afford to have the floor done again (the tiles were quite expensive in the first place and I really didn't want the builder to come back as I was so upset). I've realised now too late sadly that tiling is a specialist trade and I'd never get a genral workman to do a job like that again.

I really need to get my kitchen finished too, it's been like this for 2 years and teh tiles are cracking now and becoming dangerous for my children to stand on. My question is how long will it take to lift all the tiles and get rid of all the thinset remaining? Could I do it myself? I think I'm just going to go for an oak engineered floor similar to my living room which is problem free (on the same hardboad base as the kitchen) though to be honest I really would prefer tiles.

Should I get the new floor done first? Or the new units fitted? I'd planned on having the whole kitchen done after the building work but just couldn't afford it until now. The kitchen is 4m x 3.5.

[Sir Ramic]

Hard to say without seeing the job. Why not get some quotes for the job from experienced tilers by asking here. I'm Looking for a Wall and Floor Tiler

[Sir Ramic]

And a location would help too

[Mike]

it sounds like the tiles are coming up on there own so they shouldn't be a problem. if the adhesive is hard to scrape off you may be better off replacing the boards, they should be minimum 15mm to tile on. if you lay the new floor on the boards you may still have too much bounce, is the living room a floating floor or are the boards glued/nailed down? i would fit the kitchen first and lay the floor after.

[MissH]

Thanks for the quick replies! I've updated my profile with location.

Hmmm yes, it might be easier to lift the boards up rather than doing all that scraping. I'm shocked that he only used 4mm thick plywood rather than 15mm! A lot of difference there! I don't think the adhesive (though he did use flexible) was applied thickly enough either judging by the ones I can lift up with my fingers.

The living room is a floating floor. Will post something on the other forum as mentioned, thanks for that. Good that you think the floor should be done after the kitchen, means I can start looking around for kitchen fitters too.

[Sir Ramic]

Here is a good Kitchen fitter View Profile: strummerman - TilersForums.co.uk | Tile Forums | Tiling Forum

[John Benton]

Sounds like a kitchen floor I recently replaced where the tiles were loose within months. The guys who did it managed to prepare, tile and grout 18m2 in 3/4 of a day. Of course it was done correctly!!!! It was tiled straight onto floor boards with a 6mm wall trowel. It didn't take that long to rip them up, the grout was holding it all together. Ripped the whole lot and cleaned the floor in 3 hours, so depending on what materials were used originally will determine how quickly the tiles can be removed and the substrate cleaned and prepared. The plywood is obviously nowhere near thick enough and was it nailed or screwed down?

[Bathfix Bob]

Probably not even fixed at all!

[MissH]

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Thought I'd post some photos to show you the workmanship. I think he did use screws but as the ply was so thin, half of them seem to have split and it has definitely warped. Just removed one of the tiles to show you the underneath! He didn't even board out to the door and that tile simply cracked as it was on a different level. The gaps between the tiles weren't big enough either and I did comment on that at the time but he said the adhesive stated to use gaps that big.

I really hope they won't take too long to pull up!

[John Benton]

Looking at the pics it clearly is shoddy workmanship, no doubt about that. At least he managed to cut the architrave to slide the tile under!!!!! Don't know why he bothered using spacers as the joints appear to be different widths as well. It also looks like there are vinyl tiles underneath the ply. It appears to be screwed down but the number of visible screws leaves a lot to be desired. Definitely all to come up and start from scratch.

[Dave]

Woops... not a good job at all...

What is under the ply etc... one pic, it looks like possible screed..?

[nybor62]

omg shocking , makes me so angry when some pro tilers aint got any work , then theses muppets turn out crap like this

[John Benton]

Dave, do you think on pic 5 it could be a vinyl/lino tile?

[Sir Ramic]

Dave, do you think on pic 5 it could be a vinyl/lino tile?

Looks like Marley tiles to me.

[whitebeam]

Ply onto vinyl on screed ?????

[Dave]

Seen it done a few times, builders/cowboys think it levels the floor for tiling..

[MissH]

Yes, you're right that he tiled onto the vinyl tiles and did some "infilling" with adhesive or screed. I did ask whether I needed to take the tiles up and he said they'd be fine. The spacing is all out too as you can see which is why the whole floor veers off at an angle. I don't think he marked it out first as I know you're supposed too. The architrave is cut as I specifically asked for it, I reckon he would have just butted it up and infilled with grout!

I'm pleased you all agree it's a shocking job. If I did work like this I'd be ashamed. Still I guess you learn from your mistakes though it'll be an expensive one. I think I realised a few days after he'd done it that it would all have to come up

Plan now though is to get a new kitchen in after ripping up those tiles ( heartbreaking as it is as I really like the tiles themselves), and then getting some professionals in like you guys to assess whether I can have tiles or will have to go with wood. I don't supposed they could be salvaged could they?

[jwatson]

would that not be visqueen??

[jwatson]

another shocking piece of work from a "Builder/Tiler"
There are regs for every trade, seems to me as these builder types totally ignore british standards when tiling. they have left this person out of pocket and with a poor piece of work.......shocking!!! really annoys me.
This site is brilliant for quality advise, quick responces,contacts for materials and pro tilers.

the tiles should come up relativly easy with a hammer and bolster(he sez) as you say they are lifting all over. if not a kango will defo do it and you should be able to hire one.
rip it up, take some pics of what you have and come back and ask what prep needed.
if you do get a tiler in to do the work, ask questions on how they intend to complete the job and arm youself with all the knowledge you can from this site before you comence battle.
Good luck

[bobbynz]

You really should get this fool back to rip it all up and fork out for new tiles and refund you what he charged you. Your photos will be enough together with a report by a proffessional tiler, if he doesn't want to know. If thats the case then take him to small claims and get your money. I know its a hassle but when it's all over you will have a brand new kitchen and floor just like you wanted originally and it's not going to cost you twice as much .
For yours and others sake it will send him a message that his poxy workmanship will not be tolerated.

[Bathfix Bob]

Sadly this guy rode off into the sunset 2 years ago, even if you did manage to speak to him he'd just argue wear and tear and than his 'gaurantee' ran out after a year. He'll also be skint after Christmas.

If the setting out and grout lines were spot on but just wrong preperation then maybe we could be easier on him, if he didn't know any better but still wanted to do a good job. But his workmanship is terrible as well. Cowboy.

What I mean is there are loads of builders who can do a fantastic tiling job etc, but tile onto the wrong surface and they fail. They don't know any better as they don't specialise.

[MissH]

Thanks again guys,
Bobbynz I wish I could get him back but as he tried to repair his mistakes two years ago without success I have little faith in him so wouldn't ever have him back in my house. I've accepted I've just had to take a hit on this one
Actually might be quite theraputic ripping up the tiles with a nice big hammer and bolster. Will take some pics as I'm doing the work. Actually, just reading through some of the forum posts and it is so obvious that that width of ply he used would never work in a million years!! Just wonder how many other floors he's laid have lifted too as he must have used the same method. Oh forgot to mention as well, the grout was all different shades, from bright white to dark gray?!

[Mike]

regarding re-using the old tiles, do you know if he used a cement based adhesive? did the adhesive stay on the tiles after lifting? you may be able to clean off the adhesive , especially if he's used inferior/wrong adhesive. you could even try soaking a few overnight in a bucket to see if it softens the adhesive. worth a try.

[Bolter]

regarding re-using the old tiles, do you know if he used a cement based adhesive? did the adhesive stay on the tiles after lifting? you may be able to clean off the adhesive , especially if he's used inferior/wrong adhesive. you could even try soaking a few overnight in a bucket to see if it softens the adhesive. worth a try.

There are no spares and a few fitted ones are cracked so not sure it'll work.

[Bathfix Bob]

Going by the pics I'm sure that paper thin ply can be pulled out like a table cloth and leave all the tiles on the floor ready to be just picked up.

I would just get a claw hammer and wide blunt wood chisel (I have loads!) and just try getting the ply up first rather than removing tile from ply. You'll probably find the tiles just pop off doing that.

[MissH]

I did an experiment earlier and put a tile in the sink for just an hour ( I don't have a big enough bucket!). Was able to flake off the adhesive with a wall paper scraper and hammer...came off in quite big pieces and it seemed quite soft but would be hard work doing all of 106 of them I think. Plus not sure what I'd do if there's not enough due to cutting and waste etc once they're re-laid. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to match them after this time.

I like your tablecloth idea Bob Hey presto!

Seriously though so far by the looks of things the job has been done incorrectly on the following counts:-
1) 4mm ply used instead of 15mm and ply just screwed not glued as well.
2) Vinyl tiles left and boarded over - should have been removed.
2) Ply not taken up to edge of room leading to cracking of tiles.
3) Floor not marked up correctly leading to veering off at the other side of the room
4) Wrong mix of adhesive used - mixture too powdery
5) Adhesive not applied correctly and not enough used for suffiecient grab in places
5) Too small spacers used leading to differing widths between tiles.
6) Grout not mixed correctly and accurately leading to different colours.

I might just email the builder ( he's still trading!) and see what he says. Worth a try anyway!

[John Benton]

If you still have his details it may be worth mailing him just to prick his conscience, if he has one, attach the pictures as well. I'd be surprised if you get any response. Where did you get the tiles from originally? It's possible that they still do them even after this length of time and you could possibly take one of the tiles taken up to colour match and size.

[Alan M]

worth a try going back to the tile shop.
i did that for a small job i did. managed to get tiles that were down 10 years at least. god only knows how he found them after this time. all i wanted was something close enough for a splash back . he even gave them to me free. probably knew he couldnt sell them and wanted rid. . very nice of him thow. always good to repeat customers

[doug boardley]

I always leave tiles behind the kickboard in a kitchen, with all the relevant info from the box they came in, a lot of tlers do this for customers future reference.

[John Benton]

Me also Doug, I think this was mentioned in the recent thread about how many actual m2 you charge for when fitting. Try to leave a good few tiles to cover any future breaks etc.