Help!: Chimney breast tiles popping - help!

[Tony Cooper]

Hi All,

Could really do with some help here. A good pal of mine had a fireplace built with an inset fire and asked me to tile the surround from floor to ceiling. He supplied the tiles (purchased off the internet) which were a porcelain metalic 600 x 300. The fire company built the chimney breast with plasterboards fixed to a wooden frame. My pal wanted the tiles to sit perfectly flush with the face of the fire so we had to screw fix 6mm ply to the face of the chimney breast plasterboards (to pack it out to the right level) which meant that when the tiles were fixed there was no lip visible. The plasterboard and ply were sealed with BAL SBR primer and the tiles fixed with Weber.set spf, grout used was Mapei ultracolour plus.

2 months later and he's just rang to say that some of the tiles are popping off. I'm going to have a look tomorrow but I've never had a chimney breast tiling job fail before so I'm at a loss to explain why it's failed. I've attached a few pics so you can see what the finished job looked like.

Anybody had this happen before ? If so, why has it failed ? And the million dollar question, can it be saved without any major surgery ?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Tony

[nybor62]

the tiles that are popping are they the ones closest to the heat of the fire,how secure was the frame work , imo i would,nt have used ply either would have gone with cement board

[whitebeam]

The 6mm ply could be flexing with the heat from the fire or even the room, if it's popping the tiles then may need removing...

[hillhead]

The ply is too light i'd say, and it's a disaster to stick anything to lately as it's all chinese.
I'v seen the veneer come away and bubble galore.
Only last week i looked at a stone wall job which was lined with ply.
I told the i'd only mechanical fix the stone plus use a two part laticrete mix.
I'm taking no chances around an american fridge, microwave etc.

[Del W]

Was the fire in use before the addy had reached its full cured strength ?

[Tony Cooper]

Thanks for the quick replies fellas.

Del, The fire wasn't switched on at all during the installation, specific instructions from me not to do so to ensure the addy cured correctly.

nybor62, hillhead and whitebeam - the frame was solid and the ply was screwed at 300mm centres.

I'll view it this morning and discuss your feedback with my pal and let yopu know the outcome.

Will let you kow how it goes.....

[pjc]

6mm ply 300 centres heat would never work take them down put the ply in the skip and start again what adhesive did you use ?

[Tony Cooper]

pjc - The plasterboard and ply were sealed with BAL SBR primer and the tiles fixed with Weber.set spf, grout used was Mapei ultracolour plus.

Just been back to the job and the tiles are solid on the face (not popping individually) but there is a small element of 'bounce' at the top (guess that's where it's hottest). That movement has caused the grout to crack down the full length of the vertical edges at the sides (where it meets the reveal) so it's got to be a problem of the ply moving. I'm gutted. Looks like the lot will have to come off and start again. It's going to be a very costly mistake.

Would hardibacker board have avoided this situation ?

[pjc]

pjc - The plasterboard and ply were sealed with BAL SBR primer and the tiles fixed with Weber.set spf, grout used was Mapei ultracolour plus.

Just been back to the job and the tiles are solid on the face (not popping individually) but there is a small element of 'bounce' at the top (guess that's where it's hottest). That movement has caused the grout to crack down the full length of the vertical edges at the sides (where it meets the reveal) so it's got to be a problem of the ply moving. I'm gutted. Looks like the lot will have to come off and start again. It's going to be a very costly mistake.

Would hardibacker board have avoided this situation ?

Never used hardy but yes sealed the back and edges of the ply not the front ? spf rapid ?

[Rich]

Ply is horrid stuff to bond to at the best of times and 6mm ply is about as good to tile onto as toilet paper. It just is not stable enough. A cement board would have been better but 6mm boards are not recommended for walls, you may have to go thicker.

What a kick in the back side. I hope your mate wasnt to upset about it.

[Tony Cooper]

Rich - it was a proper kick in the backside, but thankfully my pal can see that it's been a genuine mistake, it would never have been done on purpose and obviously I'll be doing my utmost to put it right at my cost. I'll be losing sleep over this one.

The issue we now have is that when the tiles are off and the ply is removed, it can only be replaced with a cement board that's 6mm thick. Any deeper (10mm/12mm) would mean the tiles would then overhang the fire. They still want it flush at the surface.

I'm just praying that a 6mm cement board (wedi or hardibacker?) will be a much more stable substrate than the ply. What do you reckon the chances of this being ok are ?

Thanks

[Dave]

Cement board will be fine, thin bed of adhesive behind it and screw back tight every 200mm... Hardi backer will be great IMO..



The ply was a mistake and you now see that, but that is how you learn , by your mistakes.

[Rich]

As above, the cement boards will give a much better surface to tile onto and by far the best material to use if it has to be 6mm

[Tony Cooper]

Dave - Rich. Thanks very much for the advice.

At least I've faced the music today, not stuck me head in the sand and I can now come up with a solution, albeit a costly one for me. But, I'll be a lot more confident now when I re do it.

Hopefully others can learn from this situation before it arises, I guess that's what makes this a great forum.

Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again fellas.

[jay]

pjc - The plasterboard and ply were sealed with BAL SBR primer and the tiles fixed with Weber.set spf, grout used was Mapei ultracolour plus.

Just been back to the job and the tiles are solid on the face (not popping individually) but there is a small element of 'bounce' at the top (guess that's where it's hottest). That movement has caused the grout to crack down the full length of the vertical edges at the sides (where it meets the reveal) so it's got to be a problem of the ply moving. I'm gutted. Looks like the lot will have to come off and start again. It's going to be a very costly mistake.



Would hardibacker board have avoided this situation ?

so the cracking is on the internal and external corners , which have been grouted

[Tony Cooper]

Hello Jay, the front of the chimney breast is three full tiles wide. The tiles on the sides were then fitted so they'd sit behind the full tile so as you look from the front, you don't see the edge of the side tiles, if you know what I mean. (Should be able to see it on the side proflle pic)

It's where these tiles meet that the grout has cracked, the whole vertical length of the fireplace. The tiles themselves and the grout on the front is fine.

[jay]

Take it its a fine hairline crack .if so and the tiles are solid remove grout from that joint and use a colored silicone in that joint

[Tony Cooper]

Thanks Jay, good advice, I'll give that a go and hopefully it will be a short term solution.

My pal doesn't want the upheaval so close to Christmas and even if the silicon solves the cracking it still leaves the 'bounce' issue at the top. And if that gets any worse it's unthinkable that the whole lot could fall off which I guess could happen. My worst nightmare.

[whitebeam]

Tell them not to stand to close to the fire unless safety helmets are worn...

[jay]

just wondering how much bounce there is, might be best to remove a tile and try to fasten the ply, the ply is the problem as its live (still moving with the climate) next time use cement sheet as its more stable.

[TheWrightTiler]

if you have to remove take the lot down

how thick was the p board if it was 12.5 mm use 12mm and 6mm concrete boards to overlap this will give you a good strong secure substrate

[doug boardley]

If I've read it correctly, would the answer not be to remove plasterboard and ply and then replace it with an insulation board that'll stop heat from chimney breast getting to it?

[Tony Cooper]

Thanks again lads.

The plasterboard/wood frame that the fire sits in was built by the fireplace company and they wanted a ridiculous amount of money to suppy and fit the tiles. That's why my pal bought the tiles separately and asked me to do the fitting.

It is sound advice ripping the lot down and replacing the plasterbords with cement boards, but the way the gas fire is fixed means it's not feasible. The only thing I can do is remove the tiles and the ply and get the frame back to where it was originally.

I can then follow the majority's advice and start from scratch, this time with a cement board. Lesson well and truly learned.

[piston-broke]

I would strengthen the frame work while i was at it, may have been part of the problem too, a lot of weight there.

[Tony Cooper]

Interesting update.

Thought I'd speak to Hardibacker about what I need to do and they told me NOT to use their boards in this type of situation. They said that over time it would be likely that the cement board would dry and crumble meaning an unstable substrate. They suggest I only use an insulation board. Fair play to them for honest advice.

I then spoke with Wedi, and they told me that their boards would indeed be fine because of their insulation capabilities, but could only be used if the heat did not exceed 75 Degrees. I now need to find out how powerful the gas fire is. They did mention I might have to use a Fireboard - something I'm unfamiliar with. Anybody tiled onto Fireboards ? Looks like more research tomorrow.

[whitebeam]

I take it it has a flue from the gas fire then....

[jay]

Makes you wonder how safe the studs and plasterboard are in this one

[Tony Cooper]

Yes, there is a flue from the fire, goes out the back wall.

And from what I remember it was a very solid structure when I was tiling it.