Help!: Hollow sounding Porcelain tiles recently laid.

[Jonnyd]

Hi Everyone,

I wonder if anyone could advise me. I have recently had procelain 500 X 500mm tiles fitted by my local builder whilst he was fitting a new kitchen for me. We decided to have underfloor heating installed at the same time. The job consisted of 8 x 3m kitchen diner and followed on with 4 x 4m conservatory. This was completed in July 2011. I have now found that 6 of the kitchen tiles are very hollow sounding, and one at the entrance to the kitchen 'POPS' whenever you walk on it. The underfloor heating was laid on top of bitumen floor, and held in place with self leveling compound. I am not sure how the tile was laid or what adhesive was used. Is this problem going to get worse, I didn't notice the hollow sound until recently, if we take up the tiles will we damage the unfloor heating, which is electrical? The builder is only a small outfit, and I can see him struggling to take all the tiles up and replacing but I fear that this would be the only answer!

[hillhead]

Welcome along Jonny,
This sounds like another builder who thinks they can tile.
Spot fixing may have been used too although you would have all tiles with hollow spots.
You will need to lift one carefully and see what's wrong under it.

[craigdon]

If you have voids underneath the tiles, which it sounds like you have, haven't you noticed cold spots when the UFH is on?

If you take up a hollow sounding tile carefully you may find it comes up easy and won't cause any damage to the cables.

[Jonnyd]

Thanks Joe, nervous about lifting one with the underfloor heating, in your experience would they all need relaying?

[Jonnyd]

I have rung the builder and he is coming round tomorrow night to have a look. I just wanted a bit of advice before he came so I could be prepared, thanks.

[suave]

welcome!

[Bri]

Welcome along to the forum. You need to find out what adhesive was used and how they have been fixed to the floor, a solid bed fixing method is the only way your tiles should be fitted.


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[hillhead]

Good luck with your builder, you will need him to lift that bad tile out or get someone else to do it and then you'll know the problem.
If it's loose there should be no problem lifting it.
The SLC should protect the wires.
We are finding more of this happening on the forum as builders are cutting corners and using sub standard tilers or just tiling themselves without full knowledge of current standards and regulations.

[garythetiler]

nothing to do with the adhesive here the underfloor heating warms up and melts the bitumen which has a very low melting point which causes the adhesive and levelling compound to fail the bitumen should have been removed or thermal insulation boards should have been used in my opinion

[Phil Hobson]

Sounds like another case of dot and dab. Good luck with it

[Phil Hobson]

Missed the bitumen bit, but could well be the cause.

[hillhead]

Good point too Gary, looks like disaster again.
If it is melting a lot more will become loose.
The one tile up should reveal all though.
You will have to be there Jonny.

[jay]

Think you may have it Gary

[Jonnyd]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. The builder did put a coating on the bitumen before laying the UFH he said it was to reflect the heat upwards. It was a sticky substance. Once the tiles were fitted he turned the UFH on full, could this have done any damage to the tile adhesive? i.e. does it take a week or so to set properly? Does anyone else have experience of laying UFH on top of bitumen or ashfelt flooring

[whitebeam]

The adhesive needs 2 weeks to set then turn the ufh gradually..

[Phil Hobson]

Thermal shock springs to mind, heated floors should be brought up to max temp slowly.

[Phil Hobson]

Sorry Mark, double post, great minds think alike.

[alexc1989]

the underfloor heating shouldnt be switched on until at least 4 weeks tis may be the cause?

[Jonnyd]

Hello again, I just thought I would give you an update and ask for advice again. I have discussed my problem with the builder who has agreed that I have a problem with my tiling. He will be coming back in 2 weeks to relay the hollow sounding and now loose tiles. The problem is that the number of hollow sounding tiles is increasing and I fear that unless all the tiles are redone the problem won't go away. How do I convince the builder to redo all the tiles that have been done even the ones that don't sound hollow? Also how likely that the UFH will be damaged when he starts to remove the tiles?
Once again thanks to everyone for giving me their advice.
Jonny

[whitebeam]

You want to be there when he starts to lift a few tiles to see whats happening..you are the customer whos paying for this work and you want it right, take no excuses..

[Phil Hobson]

It sounds to me that re-fixing a few tiles will not be a long term solution. It should all come up imo, and the floor should be prepared properly, get the builder to get a pro tiler in. Sorry to be negative, but you need this sorting by the builder. It is his problem, not yours.

[kilty55]

sorry but it sounds an absolute disaster

hollow tiles

bitumen as well id be wantign to know how he prepped this floor

and also whacked the ufh on once he hasd tiled it full pelt

good luck and keep us informed on your progress jonny

[deanotile]

i would want the name of all the products used in the installation. including the coating that was used to reflect the heat the primer and the adhesive. then i would want the method of application. when you have this information you can check that the products used are suitable and that the installation complies with manufacturers instructions. it is a safe bet that something was not done or not done correctly as the installation is failing and there is always a reason. if it is something to do with the way the builder installed the job then you will be in a strong position to insist the job is striped back and installed correctly.* * * * * * *

[CJ CERAMICS]

I think it was the group Orange juice in the 80's who said it best

Rip it up and start again

this is what your builder needs to do.

[TheWrightTiler]

nothing to do with the adhesive here the underfloor heating warms up and melts the bitumen which has a very low melting point which causes the adhesive and levelling compound to fail the bitumen should have been removed or thermal insulation boards should have been used in my opinion

my tak exactly, the fault seems to lie in the prep and imho needs to be ripped up and done again at the builders expense

andy

[Sir Ramic]

Just been asked to tile and UFH onto bitumen , I explained why I wouldn't d it and they actually agreed after I pointed out potential problems.

[gubbins]

Good grief, this makes my botched adhesive over UFH job sound positively pro..

[Jonnyd]

Hello again,

Well my tale of woe has just about reached a conclusion, with most of the tiles becoming loose and the builder not reeplying to my phone calls. So I am in need of a solution to fit underfloor heating over ashfelt flooring/bitumen. i.e. I don't really want to raise the floor by much, so if there something I can put over the floor, then lay the UFH wire, and then porcelain tiles. Also does anyone recommend a builder to do this who lives in the Preston/Lancashire area of the North West. Many Thanks, Jonny

[Mike]

Doesn't sound like a quick fix unfortunately, keep us updated and good luck

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[Phil Hobson]

Jonny you need a pro tiler, not a builder. PM sent. There are enough tilers who don't know how to prep a job, let alone builders