Dot & Dabbed Porcelain tiles - job in progress

[arc]

Gents,

After some advice here.
Pics below show the state of my kitchen floor this afternoon. The work has been done by a checkatrade registered tiler with good feedback.

The floor has 3 areas, at either end is a concrete floored extension with original wood flooring in the central part.

The floor was PVAd, then covered with a flexible adhesive then Ditra matting to avoid movement issues between the substrates. The surface was then covered in self levelling compound.

The tiles are 40x40 wickes porcelein tiles and the adhesive is wickes flexible porcelein adhesive (after a change from the Mapei rigid adhesive which was used for the first few tiles). After I requested a flexible adhesive we lifted the tiles and cleaned them off ready for the wickes adhesive.

As the new adhesive is rapid setting the tiler has now switched from a trowelled application to a dot and dabbed method. Looking around on the web I've seen countless threads criticising the dot & dab method and claims that british standards rule against this method. Any suggestions welcome...

If the tiles do need to come up - is the adhesive likely to pull up the SLC / Ditra?

[Bri]

Afternoon, quite a few issues you have there. The PVA is a big no no, an acrylic primer should have been used. You also really need to have an expansion joint where the two different substrates meet as ditra only helps with lateral movement, this can be done using a silicone to match your grout so that it is not noticeable. Finally dot and dab is not a recommended method of fixing tiles, I'm being a bit polite, it is a totally unacceptable fixing method. If you do decide to take the tiles up there is quite a high chance that the SLC will come with it, possibly the ditra also.

[suave]

them tiles will break

[Rich]

Im afraid that Bri is bang on. That is a terrible installation! PVA is not suitable for any job in a tiling installation.Please have a read through the link below

read: P.V.A. Versus Primers


Regardless of this, I doubt that floor will last more than a month or two. Every adhesive has a max depth, it looks like he has exceeded this depth but more importantly, you need to get 100% coverage of adhesive under floor tiles (I dont need to point out that you dont have that on this floor) otherwise they crack, split and come loose. All it takes is a table leg or some1 wearing hight heels.

Please do me a favor and contact Check a trade and tell them that you are not happy, this is what they are there for. Im sick to the back teeth of hearing about people being ripped off by cowboys.

Oh and needless to say, dont pay him a penny.

[Bathfix Bob]

I think the floor will probably be okay as long as long as you don't walk on it!

I can't believe the installer has knowledge of ditra mats and SLC etc but chooses to dot and dab, he's the one who will get the dreaded call that the tiles are cracking which means he's seriously out of pocket.

You say he had good freedback? He's not from one of these My Builder sites is he?

[andy allen]

as above, a complete mess......DONT PAY HIM ...

[Dave]

I am gobsmacked..!!!

That is atrocious , no support on corners etc.. you should really SLC the floor before installing the uncoupling mat.. but that method of fixing is so so wrong and a failure is deffo due..

You need to stop this installation now and confront this so called tiler and say that this method is not providing 100% support/coverage to your tiles and that he has not followed BS5385 fixing methods..

[Rich]

I have had to put right a lot of work carried out by tilers that have been rated really high on check a trade (including a lady that was getting electric shocks from the shower), every time I ask "have you got hold of check a trade?" and they always say "oh no, I dont want to make a fuss". Please do not be one of these people, give him a bad review and make it very clear to him and to check a trade that you are unhappy with it. This guy will continue to rip people off if nobody starts to give him bad reviews.

[whitebeam]

Why use white adhesive anyway, it's all been said in posts above..what a mess.

[pjc]

On pic 5 what are the small squares behind the tiles?

[Stewart]

Yikes....! That's a serious mess and has all been said above. The installer's method is all wrong. They obviously didn't know how to level the floor properly and have had to dot dab floor to try and get an even finish.

Stop them immediately, don't pay them, get in touch with Check Trade and recoup all cost's incurred so far from installer!


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[Phil Hobson]

It has all been said above, as Dave says the slc should get the floor as flat as poss before the decoupling membrane. Rich also is bang on with his comments on adhesive maximum thicknesses, all in all a poor installation. hope you get it sorted

[Phil Hobson]

Sorry Stew, I was still typing when you beat me to it, same answer different words

[Stewart]

Sorry Stew, I was still typing when you beat me to it, same answer different words

No need to apologise, as great minds think alike Phil, though some can type quicker than other's....(;0)


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[Del W]

Welcome to TF.As all above.That tiling sucks.!!!Stop him.Dont pay.He is an idiot.Get on to checkatrade.

This makes me sick. !!!

[arc]

Thanks chaps. As I feared.
Six hours after they were laid I had a go at lifting them. Of the Sixty six tiles laid, just three broke and they were the ones which were laid before switching to the dot & dab method.
Sadly the SLC has come away in about six areas pulling up the Ditra matting.

So now I'm in a position of having to get the whole lot back up again. And I'm dreading it.
Further questions to follow once Tomorrow is out of the way.

Thanks for the suport so far.....

[hillhead]

So wrong !!!!!!All said above, don't let it go any further.This has let this so called tiler down a bag full.Terrible for you.

[andy tiler]

i cant belive my eyes wtf! how are these cowboys getting the work!!! and screeding ontop of a decoupling membrane is defeating the object.

[pjc]

On pic 5 what are the small squares behind the tiles?

Arc is that some sort of wooden flooring or vinyl

[Mike]

i can't understand why he went to the trouble of dot and dabbing when it would have been easier to do it properly . you can see the floor is lovely and flat. good luck with rectifying it. pity you never came on here for advice before you employed him. you will be able to find a tiler on here if you want to

[Stewart]

Arc is that some sort of wooden flooring or vinyl

That's the Ditra under the slc....


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[arc]

PJC - the small squares you see are just visible signs of where the ditra matting is.
Mike - To be honest until I ran aground I had no idea Tiling forums even existed!

[Stewart]

i can't understand why he went to the trouble of dot and dabbing when it would have been easier to do it properly . you can see the floor is lovely and flat. good luck with rectifying it. pity you never came on here for advice before you employed him. you will be able to find a tiler on here if you want to

I think that's where the problem lies..... It looks nice a flat, but tthe fixer has just gone through the motions of levelling the floor. I bet there was no staff or laser used and the whole floor was just given a 2mm skim on top of the Ditra...


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[pjc]

He he I use something else the pattern must of changed since I last used it

[Bathfix Bob]

Hi arc

Have you told the fixer yet that you have removed tiles, or are you waiting for him to come in the morning?

Don't forget you are in the right, don't let him fob you off with any of this 'grout will fill the voids' nonsense.

[pjc]

I didn't think you were meant to pre fill the voids ditra mating thought you had to fill with adhesive in one go

[Colour Republic]

I'm totally confused!

From your spec you're saying the guy ditra'd the floor, then SLC'd, then dot and dabbed? It seems a very wierd spec. For sombody to go to those lengths then mess up the laying of the tiles seems totally strange? Maybe they read that spec online (maybe even on here!) and completely mis-understood the methods, stages and order involved???

Now you say the tiles are 400x400 and yet they are made to look like 200x200's pre grouted?? I don't mean to appear rude but those tiles can't of cost much per square meter. That is no excuse for poor fixing but the ditra and SLC would I guess be far more £££'s per square meter than the tiles themselves. It just seems very wrong to me.

I'm still trying to get my head round this one and that's before we get to the D&D!!!!

I'm going to bed!

[Tabby Cranks]

At least he didn't spot fix the ditra.
Totally shocking.

[arc]

Now you say the tiles are 400x400 and yet they are made to look like 200x200's pre grouted?? I don't mean to appear rude but those tiles can't of cost much per square meter. That is no excuse for poor fixing but the ditra and SLC would I guess be far more £££'s per square meter than the tiles themselves. It just seems very wrong to me.

Well OK the tiles aren't expensive. We found nothing we liked at 3 tile shops and these ones for Wickes were on sale and in the right style. We don't have the finances to buy top end tiles.

Today's update is that the job has now been terminated and monies paid for materials are being returned.
I'm going to be cleaning up the mess myself. What may be the largest problem is that the adhesive used to stick down the Ditra is still soft. All in all a bit of a catalogue of errors.

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[Bathfix Bob]

Interesting, what was his excuse for his fixing method?