tile lippage

[kopthis]

does the british standard allow tolerances in regard to tile lippage I have laid tiles on the wall, customer was shown tiles were of poor quality and had a bow in them but insisted that I proceed to lay them with 2mm spacers now is crying foul thanks

[Dave]

Hi..

So this was laid brick pattern then i guess..?

[kopthis]

no just on top of each other would not normally lay them but customer insisted as she wanted the job doing asap

[Alan.P]

What size tile ?

[Dave]

So did the bowing of the tiles not all go same direction.?

[kopthis]

tile size 600 x 400, you would think they would bow in the same direction but did not want say were theywere bought from but is 2 letters the second being q so is there any allowance in the standards just so i can throw it at the woman and send her on her way

[timeless john]

Difficult one this!
I've got photos of a job we did with handmade Fired Earth tiles last year and they were all shapes and sizes. Having used similar over the years I could see the effect they were going to have and the style that the customer was looking for.
However if a tile is not meant to be 'aesthetic' and you feel they lack the quality to complete an acceptable job than the onus is on you to make a decision prior to fixing the material - as that is when the manufacturer passes the responsibility to the fixer.
I'am sure that lippage (often highlighted by downlighters) has a standard of acceptance, but if the customer is bringing this to your attention then, unless there is a hidden agenda, you will need to rectify the problem tiles - at your own expense.

[impish]

Answer from BS5385 Pt1 2009:

"7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm."

Remember though, BS is a guide, not a target.
No good getting nicked driving dangerously past a school at 8:55am and arguing the speed limit is 30mph!

[impish]

This too:

"7.1.9.1 Finished tile surfaces
The surface should be true such that, when checked with a 2 m
straightedge with 3 mm thick feet at each end, the straightedge
should not be obstructed by the tiles and no gap should be greater
than 6 mm."

"There are permissible manufacturing tolerances for ceramic tiles
defined in BS EN 14411; certain types of tiles, e.g. extruded or large
format, might have permissible surface flatness irregularities that
cannot satisfactorily be accommodated within the surface flatness
tolerance permitted to the tile installer; this should be taken into
account when evaluating the achievable flatness of a wall floor tiling
installation."

[impish]

I know where you're coming from kopthis, I've been there before. But I think you're wrong to say "does BS allow tollerances for lippage".

Ultimately, if you knew the tiles were so poor as to make a decent finish impossible, then you shouldn't really have agreed to brick bond.
Third bond perhaps.
As I say, I've been there and it's a tough call. Do you lose the job by sticking to your standards, knowing that someone else will do it and be paid?

If I were you, show the customer the first part of the BS extract and ask them to put themselves in your shoes.
You explained the problems with the tiles so they MUST bear some of the blame for the result.
You can only polish a turd so much before it all breaks up in your hands!

[whitebeam]

I know where you're coming from kopthis, I've been there before. But I think you're wrong to say "does BS allow tollerances for lippage".

Ultimately, if you knew the tiles were so poor as to make a decent finish impossible, then you shouldn't really have agreed to brick bond.
Third bond perhaps.
As I say, I've been there and it's a tough call. Do you lose the job by sticking to your standards, knowing that someone else will do it and be paid?

If I were you, show the customer the first part of the BS extract and ask them to put themselves in your shoes.
You explained the problems with the tiles so they MUST bear some of the blame for the result.
You can only polish a turd so much before it all breaks up in your hands!

THey were standard bond mate..

[impish]

Sorry! I should read faster than I type.

(hangs head in shame)

They must have been shocking tiles then!

[hillhead]

I tiled a bathroom early last week and was meant to brick it, every tile bowed so i said no.
I tiled it 600 wide, 300 high in straight lines with a nice border too and no probs.
Your tiles must have been damn bad !
Any pics?

[impish]

Ever noticed how porcelanosa insist from a design point of view that their wall tiles are fixed straight?
And by and large they are pretty damn perfect.

I've seen a touch of bowing on the long floor planks and then they ask that they are only ever 1/4 or 1/3 bond.

I always try and convince my customers that brick bond is "so last year darling!"

[ROBSON MCGREGOR]

think someone from that big DIY place should start looking at some of the tiles they are selling, i have been shocked at some of the tiles we have been asked to fix. we tell people if you get tiles from there then our price will be more expensive. Its a tough call this 1, states on the boxes that its the fixers responsibility to check tiles before fixing, good luck hope it works out in your favour.

[impish]

The surprising thing is though, that the tiles sold by the DIY sheds are well withing permissable tolerances to qualify for the EN and BS ratings.
The tolerances are crazy.

[ROBSON MCGREGOR]

Impish i never knew porcelanosa insisted that about their tiles, porcalenosa are almost always bang on, the biggest we have fixed was a 1000 x 316 ceramic wall tile, cant remember the tile name, we fixed them straight bond but they could have been fixed brick bond easily.

[impish]

Aye Robson, that's my point!
Their tiles are the best and most accurate I work with and they insist that they are fixed straight.
They look better for it too.

[ROBSON MCGREGOR]

yeah i will agree with you on that one. Porcelanosa for me. i went right off brick bond start of this year as thats all we seemed to do for about 3 or 4 years. we have used a tile from china, cant remember the name, came from (guangdong province) & they were perfect. 600x300's think they were from tile giant, when i saw them i thought they were going to be crap.

[impish]

Yup, I've worked with some large format rectified chinese ceramics, white bodies. I think they were made by Winter-something-or-other.
In any case, they were bang on. Managed to wet cut a millimeter sliver all the way down the length!

[garythetiler]

when using bowed tiles the convention is to measure the bow in the tile and add this to your standard joint width so if the bow is 1,5mm then you add this to the spacing size, but I couldnt imagine fitting wall tiles with such large joints, lets face it some tiles are not fit for purpose and years ago they would be classed as "seconds"

[Mike]

Yup, I've worked with some large format rectified chinese ceramics, white bodies. I think they were made by Winter-something-or-other.
In any case, they were bang on. Managed to wet cut a millimeter sliver all the way down the length!

i used the same ones i think, winto they were called, around 600 by 400. nice tiles to cut and fit.

[impish]

i used the same ones i think, winto they were called, around 600 by 400. nice tiles to cut and fit.

It's really bugging me I can't remember the name! Deffo had "winter" in there somewhere though!

[impish]

i used the same ones i think, winto they were called, around 600 by 400. nice tiles to cut and fit.

That's it! Winto! Winto Ceramics Co., Ltd.

[charlie1]

There no such thing as perfection! Thats why we all try to get better at this i think. Always check your tiles prior to fixing and explain to limitations to customer before you start would be my advice.