How to tile on 3 different substrates??

[clipboard2008]

Hi

I have just been to a quote where the kitchen floor is across 3 different substrates. A concrete screed, wooden floorboards and then chipboard.

How's the best way to overcome all of these?

Can I Ditra the whole floor then lay my tiles or will I need to do more and ply the floor then ditra?

Many Thanks in advance

Paul

[TF Ed]

how big is the entire area/floor
how stable does the existing substrates/floor look now?
how long have the 3 substrates been in place? is there any evidence of cracks in the floor or movement?

[andy tiler]

hi clipboard this is quite a difficult one to call without any pictures, you cant just go over anything with ditra like a magic carpet.where theres diffrent substrates that meet you need to cut the ditra and install a movement joint so this could look quite messy.so pics if you can...

[clipboard2008]

Hi

Floor is just over 20m2
All substrates look good, maybe a few extra screws needed but overall really quite good, no cracks in the screed at all. Floorboards have been there 40 years plus, Chipboard and screed were done with the extension which is about 3 years old

Can't get pictures at the mo, would have to go back

Thanks

[Dave]

Are the breaks in the substrates in straight lines..?

[clipboard2008]

Hi Dave

Yes breaks are in straight lines

Thanks

[Dave]

If there is any deflection in the substrate breaks, as in where timber meets screed, then install movement joints as the tiles or grout will just crack at this point..

But just another thought,, are they all running in the same direction.?

[TF Ed]

hi clipboard

the reason i asked is...what andy says is the right advice but sometimes customers really dont like or want expansion joints depending on the pattern or tile etc. so, if the floor is not that big and the evidence points to no existing cracks movement AND thats been the way for years, then sometimes you can get away without joints but its one of those situations where you'd have to view and assess the job to be more certain...

so, if i were you, i'd advise the customer to go with what andy tiler suggested. that way, you have done the professional install and you can guarantee the job....i have done jobs like this without expansion joints and they are still fine BUT i was persuaded into it and they were personal friends who had integrity and they understood i was doing the job because its what they wanted rather than what i recommended!! Also the floors were solid with no signs of cracks or moevement. otherwise, i would'nt leave my self open to a future can of worms if you get my meaning!

[clipboard2008]

Thanks for all your replies

I understand we'd possibly need to look at expansion joints but is there a way round it? Can I create a new floor with 18mm ply or hardibacker across the whole floor or would this be a waste of time.

I know the customer wouldn't want the expansion joints and was keen not to raise the floor height too much

Dave, the two wooden floors are next to each other and the concrete screed is spans the both of them at the top (approx 4m x 1m) if that makes sense?

thanks

[Dave]

Not really.. go back and get pics.. i'm sure you can think of a reason why....

[andy tiler]

I was just gona say im confused aswell...... is it like a t shape then....

[cowgomoo]

Hi man I get the picture, there is a product called Watek made for just such poccasion, check it out ! I have used it many times and it works like a dream.

[Dave]

Hi man I get the picture, there is a product called Watek made for just such poccasion, check it out ! I have used it many times and it works like a dream.

That is a great product but will not cope if there is deflection.

[cowgomoo]

What product would cope with deflection ?

[Dave]

What product would cope with deflection ?

A movement joint at the substrate break


Sent from my iPhone

[cowgomoo]

Ok Dave, would that go beneath the Watek, if used, or within the tile layout ? Cow

[jay]

Ok Dave, would that go beneath the Watek, if used, or within the tile layout ? Cow

some new lingo there

a movement joint is carried from sub right through tiles

[clipboard2008]

I'll have some pictures on later around 7pm

thanks

[clipboard2008]

Hi All

Taken 2 sets of 3 photos which sweep across the floor from 2 different corners
the last photo is just showing that there is floorboards under the carpet

let me know what you think?

IMG_4624.JPGIMG_4625.JPGIMG_4626.JPGIMG_4627.JPGIMG_4628.JPGIMG_4629.JPGIMG_4630.JPG

[jay]

bit like a patchwork quilt
would be tempted to lift timber area and and re do

[andy tiler]

i think the best way to tackle this floor without raising your floor height.imo take up the exhisting timber floor boards and chipboard. strenghten floor joists where needed re do with 25mm marine ply but where it meets the concrete chisel the concrete where it protrudes into the plywood area so the ply sits flush with the concrete(if you get wat i mean) you will have to screw and plug the ply to the concrete.then you will be able to create a clean joint along the length of the room you will only have to install one movement joint..hope this helps.. i wouldnt attempt to put an uncoupling membrane over this substrate......

[clipboard2008]

Customer is pretty adament that he doesn't want the expansion joint

Will this Watec Product do the job or is there another way round it?

Thanks

[Dave]

If you can make sure 100% there is no deflection between timber and concrete then Watec will uncouple the whole floor.. as it is laid loose and not stuck down.. so different expansion issues do not effect it, but it is very pricey.

[andy tiler]

appart from going over the whole floor with 25mm ply no.. expantion joints dont look that bad if there installed properly you can get them to match the grout..sorry but ive never heard of watec?????

[Dave]

Watec..

30-metres-of-watec-2e--gutjahr-indortec-matting.jpg

Watec 2e indoor Matting – gUtJaHR
The Watec 2E Indoor Matting reinforced decoupling matting does not need
an adhesive bond to substrate and allows for damage free tiling on critical
substrates such as wood, asphalt, cracked concrete floors, hard PVC or substrates
made of different kinds of material. Watec 2E Indoor Matting saves time, labour
and materials and is ideal for problem substrates such as chipboard. The mesh side
is placed uppermost. Designed as a floating system it offers a variety of time and
cost saving advantages:
l Secure: 100% guaranteed decoupling
l Fast: Less preparation of the substrate, up to 75% quicker = less waiting
time to continue work
l Cost saving: Less adhesive and material for preparing the substrate needed
and tiles can be laid directly onto contaminated bases/hard PVC/
linoleum without disposing of old floor coverings

http://www.trimlineinnovation.co.uk/...t_Mattings.pdf

[andy tiler]

Watec..

30-metres-of-watec-2e--gutjahr-indortec-matting.jpg




http://www.trimlineinnovation.co.uk/...t_Mattings.pdf

cheers dave thats a new one on me!! still wouldnt trust it on diffrent substrates! and that floor on them pics is not the best, its your job clipboard your call????i wouldnt put my name to it.

[tilerjason]

hi chip , i had the same problem over a year ago i used ditra, been back a few weeks ago to do the porch and the kitchen / diner floor still looks great.

here the web video

YouTube - ‪Ceramic Tile Installation with Schluter Ditra‬‏

hope it helps

[Tabby Cranks]

The watec looks interesting. Ditra wouldn't cope with the various substrates, not sure about the watec though.
If I've read that right, you don't anchor the watec to the substrate? I think I'd go with Andy's idea, make the whole floor the same substrate, I'd prefer if was a cement board of some kind though.