Help!: Where does responsibility lie?

[CMC_EK]

Hi guys

New to this so bear with me...

I have a major problem. My tiler has put tiles on my bathroom wall:

FIRST SESSION: 2 walls around bath
SECOND SESSION: rest of the room

Towards the end of the second session the tiles put above my window are substancially different in colour (pictures don't show it as obviously as real life)

Picture 009.jpg Picture 007.jpg

The tiler has said he only noticed this once they were up and he stopped straight away and phoned me at work to come home. On viewing, I agreed that we had a problem. We then both started picking out more subtle but still quite different tiles on the walls that had been tiled during the first session (2 days earlier). This had not been apparent previously. I estimate that around 4-6 tiles on each wall are noticeably different.

We left the tiles up and tiler took an off cut of the different tiles to the retailer. Their desk immediately acknowledged the problem and agreed to look into it. The manufacturers rep was also in the shop and acknowledged the fault. On close inspection the offending tiles look like the inverse of the correct tiles. The correct tiles have raised very small white dimples with what looks like a more peachy coloured groove running between them. The faulty ones have a peachy dimple with white grooves.

Anyway, a week down the line and manufacturer has agreed with retailer to provide a colour matched run of tiles based on a sample we sent to them. I’m happy with this.

However the retailer is claiming no responsibility as they say the tiler should have checked every tile for shading before fixing to wall. They even said he should have laid out all 20m of tiles on floor prior to fixing. I have stated that both myself and tiler carried out reasonable checks – all batch numbers were identical, a broad check of a sample of the tiles appeared the same colour. I know the tiler would check this where possible – he recently tiled our kitchen and laid out all tiles before cutting and fixing and asked us if we were happy with them. Also, many of tiles look fine on initial check – it’s only when you step back and see them all together that you start to pick out the problem tiles.

I believe the tiler carried out reasonable checks (1 or 2 tiles per box of 10, which is certainly more rigorous than retailers QA process) and stopped fixing as soon as fault became apparent. As a result I believe responsibility lies with the retailer for providing the faulty tile and are therefore also liable for “consequential losses” i.e. cost of removal, making walls good and re-tiling.

I have written to retailer asking for them to cover the consequential losses but they have phoned blaming the tiler and citing a lot of clauses on the back of their invoice saying they are not responsible.

So it boils down to a couple of questions that I am seeking advice and opinions on:

1. Is it reasonable to expect a tiler to check every single tile before a job? Especially when space is constrained (i.e. around 3m of floor space)

2. Where do you feel responsibility lies - retailer or tiler?

Sorry for this rather rambling post and thanks in advance for you help!!!

[easyt]

I would look to the retailer. No matter what the disclaimer is on the boxes the tiles obviously were not fit for purpose as he is replacing them.

See what the pro's think.

[jay]

just looking at the pics seems to be a lot of difference in the tiles
why did it take so long to pick up on

[akinsontiles]

It's a bit of a nightmare scenario. If you've managed to catch the rep at the shop where you bought them you've done well as they are willing to replace them without argument.

However getting them to pay for the costs incurred will take a long time. Threaten them with a colicitor's letter and an estimated cost for the work and they may back down. Was it a large retailer or an independant?

[CMC_EK]

akinsontiles: Thanks - its a pretty big independent up in west of scotland - most of the tilers use them and I've used them for years - disappointed that they are willing to allow that loyalty to just evaporate.

In the letter I've sent to them I have itemised the estimated costs as far as possible at this stage and cited all the legal jargon that consumer direct advised me to include - I get the feeling it's heading to the small claims court though. Legally, I have no claim on manufacturer, only the retailer as they supplied the goods to me under contract.

What about the first question - do you feel the tiler has conducted reasonable checks or should he have checked every tile like the retailer is claiming? What is the norm in the tiling trade when checking wall tiles?

[SandyFloor]

I don't think it reasonable for someone to check 200 tiles of the same batch number for colour difference as you would need to lay them all out at once and where would you do that in most cases? I would have thought the retailer should be taking it up with the manufacturer or agent. If you're talking about 20 tiles or so to be changed prior to grouting is it worth any legal costs and grief? Mind you, practically speaking, the difference seems so obvious I'm surprised the tiler didn't spot it a lot sooner.

Does this dealer have an italian name beginning with C?....or maybe italian again beginning with T?

[SandyFloor]

I've just thought about it more. You have the cost of replacing the tiles, the immediate delay due to work stopping, the subsequent delay while waiting for replacement tiles and a return visit by the tiler.

[jay]

Think you will find the responsibility lies with the tiler and possibly the retailer

if the boxes were marked with matching batch numbers (also there should be caliber tone and shade numbers which also should match ) the retailer has supplied the goods ordered
the tiler who has accepted the goods as suitable to lay after checking batch numbers ect which is checked before fixing also tiler has a better look at tiles when he is mixing boxes to achieve good shading
every tile is laid individual so yes every tile is inspected (checked for defects chips and shading and grain direction )
the manufacture normally states on boxes they will only replace the tiles if found to be faulty not the labor to rectify

[CMC_EK]

@jay: the pictures I've put up are the most obvious runs. Can't be certain why it wasn't picked up earlier but tiler says that he had couple of boxes in bathroom and fixed the pipe chase and above window - becuase he was close to tiles when fixing the difference wasn't as obvious - only when he went to get an additional box from downstairs did he come back in and notice.

Having not tiled myself I'm not entirely sure if this is plausible, but have used tiler many times and he has always highlighted small issues and checked with us before fixing so no reason to think he was just hoping we'd not notice. He didn't finish the window and asked me to come round and look rather than continuing so I think he's honest enough. Also, in some light it just doesn't look as bad (although it is always noticeable)

On the other walls the difference is more subtle but once you're eye is tuned in from the window wall, you can pick them out easily on the others.

[jay]

we are all human and we all make mistakes as long as we learn from them its okay

[CMC_EK]

I don't think it reasonable for someone to check 200 tiles of the same batch number for colour difference as you would need to lay them all out at once and where would you do that in most cases? I would have thought the retailer should be taking it up with the manufacturer or agent. If you're talking about 20 tiles or so to be changed prior to grouting is it worth any legal costs and grief? Mind you, practically speaking, the difference seems so obvious I'm surprised the tiler didn't spot it a lot sooner.

Does this dealer have an italian name beginning with C?....or maybe italian again beginning with T?

Got it first time the italian C!

I see the point about the tiler - as mentioned to Jay it was that run of 10-15 tiles that is most notcieable. on other walls we didn't notice it originally after the session, but now it seems quite blatant to us.

[CMC_EK]

Think you will find the responsibility lies with the tiler and possibly the retailer

if the boxes were marked with matching batch numbers (also there should be caliber tone and shade numbers which also should match ) the retailer has supplied the goods ordered
the tiler who has accepted the goods as suitable to lay after checking batch numbers ect which is checked before fixing also tiler has a better look at tiles when he is mixing boxes to achieve good shading
every tile is laid individual so yes every tile is inspected (checked for defects chips and shading and grain direction )
the manufacture normally states on boxes they will only replace the tiles if found to be faulty not the labor to rectify

Thanks Jay, I'll check for caliber, tone and shade numbers when I get home.

[timeless john]

IMHO the manufacturer has done everything that they will be liable for by providing you with a batch of new tiles FOC.
The tiler must rectify his liability by fixing the tiles at his cost.

The boxes clearly state - manufacturers liability ends when tiles fixed - and as a tile fixer I would admit my mistake if I'd fixed tiles of different shades even with batch numbers being the same. As a customer you just want the job completed to a high standard not delayed for a few quid!

[CMC_EK]

Thanks John - looks like everyone agrees that the tiler needs to shoulder some blame and the retailer has no liability. Oh well, hopefully we can get this sorted soon - getting married on 2 July!!!

[andy allen]

the main thing you need to check is batch numbers. calabor and tone, if all these are the same then its the manufactrers fault.

who bought the tiles you or the tiler, dose the tiler put a lot of buisness the tile shops way, he might be able to use this in your favour.

unless you were given mixed batches, tiles shouldnt shade that much.

[Brian the Tile]

ah but who bought the tiles before everybody blames the tiler is he not just there to fix the tiles,and he did stop and phone the customer after all ,if customer bought the tiles surely it must be between them and the store where they came from,i might be missing something here but to me the tiler doesnt seem to have done much wrong

[Stewart]

I always check batch, tone numbers and for damaged tiles while fixing, but it's very difficult to spot a shaded tile while fixing IMO. I always stand back and check each wall as I complete it. Then it may be noticeable, but I'm not looking for it if all the boxes match.

Expecting a tiler to lay out all tiles prior to fixing is ridiculous and I would also expect my shop to accept some responsibility for supply me with an imperfect product if all the numbers match. I've had a similar situation, but it wasn't apparent until it was grouted. As all the boxes were checked in store, as I always do while collecting, shop paid to rectify the work and I think rightly so.

[timeless john]

Thanks John - looks like everyone agrees that the tiler needs to shoulder some blame and the retailer has no liability. Oh well, hopefully we can get this sorted soon - getting married on 2 July!!!

I don't think that the retailer has no liability!
He has sold materials unfit for purpose - are we sure that he has not put old stock into new boxes to make up the numbers.
The tiler is responsible for fixing the materials and as such is required to ensure that the blend (after mixing from various boxes) is acceptable. So his labour for this mistake is his cost.
The manufacturer will replace all tiles at their cost.
The retailer should replace the ancillary materials used - adhesives etc.
You should not have to pay for anymore than the agreed budget at the outset.
This of course is not an ideal world!
Good luck and have a wonderful day on 2nd July.
TJ.

[Pebbs]

I always check batch, tone numbers and for damaged tiles while fixing, but it's very difficult to spot a shaded tile while fixing IMO. I always stand back and check each wall as I complete it. Then it may be noticeable, but I'm not looking for it if all the boxes match.

Expecting a tiler to lay out all tiles prior to fixing is ridiculous and I would also expect my shop to accept some responsibility for supply me with an imperfect product if all the numbers match. I've had a similar situation, but it wasn't apparent until it was grouted. As all the boxes were checked in store, as I always do while collecting, shop paid to rectify the work and I think rightly so.

Stewart has hit the nail on the head, you employed a tiler not a qs to go through and check the tiles prior to them being laid. The responsibility of checking lies with the purchaser, not the person employed to fix them. Tilers are not required to check every batch of tiles a client has purchased, if that was the case then they would be charging you for undertaking this. The retailer ordering the stock should have ensured that the calibration and batch were all matching before you paid the invoice. Tilers do not always notice colour variations straight of the bat, and reading through your comments, in all fairness he did contact you as soon as he noticed the difference.

I would advise you, that in my opinion it would be very unwise to put any of the blame on this man, because there is no comment of any faults in his work. He tiled with the materials supplied to him. Why should he have to hold any responsibility for a chain of events due to no quality checks being in place, for which he had no part in.

Pebbs

[bootsmckiber]

The only time I've had to lay out my tile in 27 years is when I use slate and that's just to organize the thickness,That's a run of bad luckhow about your getting the tile replaced,get the tiler to put them up on his time,it's only a bathroom for pete's sake,he probably has enough addy in his pockets to do the job,good luck.

[kilty55]

absolutely no way is this the tilers fault,infact it was him who brought this to your attention

if the codes are the same as you say its the suppliers problem,

[Stewart]

Just to add.... when I order my tiles, I always order up to the next full box and I never accept a box that's been opened or taped up to avoid this type of problem......

[jay]

interesting comments to date
so if im reading this right if the customer supplies the tiles . all the tiler has to do is stick them to the wall job done. any shading issues cracked tiles or chipped ones is the customers fault for not inspecting the goods .
Things have changed since i was taught . check quantity check all codes on boxes check tiles for size and bow mix tiles (shading or blending)from several boxes

the tiler in question has a run of 15 different tiles in one run that indicates to me he was laying strait from the box

times have changed

any updates on this CMC_EK

[cyclonebri1]

As an outsider;

A supplier supplies a product.

He insists the user selects the same shade/batch number to avoid tolerance issues in his production process

He does this.

The shade batch turns out not to match.

What more can the tiler/user do???????????????

Simply stating "no responsibility for mismatch can be accepted after fixing" does not absolve the supplier of his responsibilities, and all the end user can be expected to check. It will not stand up if challenged, you buy a red tile, you have a right to get a red tile not pink or claret, the batch/shade No is designed purposely to ensure this.

[Sean Kelly]

In my opinion, the finger of blame can not be pointed at one person or persons.

Just think, the situation could have been a lot worse if the bathroom had been grouted.
Yes, it was a mistake that was spotted later rather than sooner. We all know that tiles look different colours depending on how the light hits them.

If I were a Judge, then this is my verdict:


The tile manufacturer has agreed to replace tiles.
The tile retailer should provide free adhesive to complete job.
The customer should pay the tiler half of what it would cost in labour to replace tiles.
The tiler should replace tiles half on pay and half for free.

The resolution to this problem is equally shared.

Cheers
Sean

[bootsmckiber]

I agree!!!

[Gall.B]

I use C quite a bit and have had issues with shades, they even deliverd the wrong tiles to a bathroom i was doing customer not home had to redo in the end up. Lately the place has gone right down the pan since somebody retired and theres a few folk with rotten attitudes in there.

[Gall.B]

They also supplied the porcelain for the exterior of the thistle hotel in Glasgow when I warg an apprentice. Tiles had the same batch numbers but arrived at 2 diffrent times. We where doing the pool inside the day the scaffy came down and had just came out of the bakers accross the road at T time and all stood opened mouthed looking at the building with two diffrent coloured tiles on half & half dont know who coughed up in the end.