1st timer- misson tile floor without cocking it up

[1st timer]

well im not a tiler but certainly no diy'er
i have my own joinery business been going 12 years so far,
when i bought my house i paid a good tiler to do my kitchen/bathroom, the time has come for another tiling job but this time i am seriously thinking about doing this one my self
im looking at tiling my living room/dining room with the view to continue into the kitchen later on once i get warrent to knock down a supporting wall,
the area im planing is 3610mm plaster to plaster with clearance under the grounds where skirting was removed for any adjusting, i plan on using 600mmx600mm porcelain tiles so thats 6 tiles wide with fingers crossed no cutting on the width of the room,
the length is 8300mm between plaster,
its going on a wood floor which i have sheeted and screwed every 150mm or less using just short of 2000 screws, long ones into the joists and shorter ones into the original boards,
i have set out a string line across the door just so i know the tiles will be ok at the threshold and have got a second line checking for square, im planning on starting from the back wall left side so i can get out the only exit, think if i can lay a row each night 6 rows souldnt be to bad, i know about starting from centre of the room by strining lines but think i should start where i have said, i will be dry laying and also chalk lining every row taking all sizes from the string along my threshold, plan on useing bar single part flexible adhesive as well, any tips or pointer would be great, although im not comitted to doing this myself yet just got it planned and thought out just in case, as you will see in the photo im stopping a good 2ft short of the wall thats going to be knocked down later so that i dont damage anything taking it down,
heres how it looks so far,

[jay]

how thick is the ply you have sheeted with

[Stewart]

How thick was the ply and did you leave any expansion gaps between the sheets.......

[Bolter]

Yea same, how thick is the ply? Might want to consider a decoupling membrane (like ditra matting) over the top of the ply (once we know its thick enough)

You will need to prime the ply with a proper tiling primer (not PVA)

Personally I would then stick ditra matting down using flexi adh using a 6mm trowel or smaller.

then tile straight onto the top face of the ditra. Some may say you dont need it, so you dont necessarily need to take my advice. No problem waiting for a few replies.

But, its important to get this bit right.

[johnryan]

i think that maybe you should ask a tiler if you know one to come round and give you some advice before you go ahead on your own. there's a lot of potential problems your looking at, and i think you need some on site technical advice really. good luck all the same.

[1st timer]

original floor was really flat, so sheeted with 9mm ply as per what the tiler asked me to do when i bought the house, he tiled the kitchen and bathroom floors about 8 years ago with no problems so far although i will be ripping the kitchen one up eventually,
"alot of potential problems" i really dont like problems if im going to end up with hassel i wont bother doing it, 29sqm is alot to have to get re-done not to mention the expense, hence the main reason for me thinking of doing it myself, ive got a real eye for detail so anything short of perfect wont be good enough

[diamondtiling]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Are you planning on tiling directly onto the ply?

[1st timer]

yes that was the plan my tiler done that so thought that was ok,

[johnryan]

i wouldn't say it's something you couldn't do yourself, if you have the time to do it, as you seem to be willing to take your time with it. i was just thinking that you could do with some help with regards to prep. there may be too much bounce in a floor that size, and i'd have thought you'd need a decoupling mat too. also, the ply you've used is below industry standard, and you'd probably be better off with at least 18mm, and possibly extra noggins in the subfloor. if you could get a tiler to come and help you out with advice with regards to these kinds of things, then you'd have a much better chance of completing the job successfully yourself. it's ok asking for advice here, and will give you a start, but really i'd say you need someone there to give you an accurate assessment of what you need to do. also, 600x600 are quite hard to lay well, so prep is even more important here too, i think. once again, good luck and hope it all goes well for you.

[Stewart]

The ply is too thin as the minimum recommended is 15mm. I wouldn't recommend tiling direct to ply. If there is no deflection in the floor you void glue and screw 6mm Mo More Ply on top to give you a good surface to tile to. If you tile directly on to 9mm ply, you will have no guarantees from the adhesive, grout and tile manufacturers.

[diamondtiling]

To be blunt I would avoid any future advice from your 'tiler'. Some adhesive manufacturers advise that you coat the underside of the ply first before tiling and others advise the face so you need to bear that in mind. 9mm is woefully thin for this project, 18mm is advisable if you are intent on using ply, (there are better products out there)

A de-coupling membrane should definately be considered as you have not allowed for any expansion between your ply sheets. What adhesive will you be using?

[Bolter]

Also, be mindful of who you ask advice from. There are many people out there that will say to you "oh yea, 9mm ply is fine" but industry standards say to use almost twice that thickness. On this forum, poor advice is shot down pretty quickly, so you should get the info you need.

[1st timer]

ok thanks i will look into the mat stuff, the floor at the minute is 22mm t&g skinned with 9mm structual ply totalling 31mm on the joists
the joist span 3.6m on brick dwarf walls with a further dwarf wall running the length at 1.8 so the biggest span unsupported is 1.8m the floor doesnt seam to be moving but guess you cant tell 6months a year down the line,
im soaking up all this advice like thirsty sponge, im in rush to do this and even if i were to lay half a dozen tiles per day then so be it,

[Phil Hobson]

As above for me, 9mm ply is not good I would glue and screw a backer board, such as hardie. The quality of marine ply is not what it used to be.

Already been said but 15mm minimum ply is advised, 18mm is more common, and a little stronger. Backer boards are a good surface to tile on, but do not help much with any deflection issues.

Good luck with it.

[blocko]

Schluter Ditra all day long! Screwing down backer boards will eat up another 1000+ screws.
Did you screw all of the 2000 screws using your Dewalt? You my man are very patient if you did.... (and probably sick of screws by now!). Autofeed screwdrivers are a mans best friend (and your back, knees, sanity etc etc )

[1st timer]

Schluter Ditra all day long! Screwing down backer boards will eat up another 1000+ screws.
Did you screw all of the 2000 screws using your Dewalt? You my man are very patient if you did.... (and probably sick of screws by now!). Autofeed screwdrivers are a mans best friend (and your back, knees, sanity etc etc )

almost bought an autofeed for this job, its the only tool i dont own, i have a drywall gun but not autofeed,
by the time i got home and unloaded the ply wood i couldnt help myself and started screwing with the dewalt, thats my home drill poor bugger was burning hot by time i got done, almost 1 box of 75mm for the joists and 1.5 boxes of shorter for screwing to the boards, joists are 18" apart give or take an inch but i still added an extra row so there was a screw every 150mm , hope that all makes sense had a few to many corona's tonight,
since i have screwed up so to speak with the boarding im thinking of going back to my original idea of real solid dark brushed carmel oak wood,

im not shy of hard work didnt mind the screwing by hand but boy was my back taking a beating

[blocko]

You can still make it work, but a decoupling membrane would be required (such as Scluter Ditra)

Ive personally never liked tiles in a living room, found them too echoey (not sure if that is a real word), and interferes with any decent sound from stereo, TV etc. Dining rooms are fine tiled, and do make sense.

I have oak engineered flooring in my hallway. So warm under foot and looks lovely too. Each to their own though

[1st timer]

You can still make it work, but a decoupling membrane would be required (such as Scluter Ditra)

Ive personally never liked tiles in a living room, found them too echoey (not sure if that is a real word), and interferes with any decent sound from stereo, TV etc. Dining rooms are fine tiled, and do make sense.

I have oak engineered flooring in my hallway. So warm under foot and looks lovely too. Each to their own though

I'm not keen on the engineered oak unless you can find it brushed so the grain can be seen, so many solid wood floors available that just look like laminate due to the coats of uv clear coat they put on.
I will look into the matting in the morning I'm convinced I can make a good job of this,
Main reason for choosing porcelain was I'm getting a modern French wood burner and having a non combustable floor is good for that,

[blocko]

I have Tuscan UV oiled & bevelled engineered wooden floor. The closest I could find to real oak, but none of the problems!

Good luck with the floor

[ms.tiles]

Hello

Regarding the room width at 3610mm and 6 tiles across, have you taken into account grout gaps. 4mm will make it 3624mm meaning cutting tiles. Of course if the tiles measure up to 600x600, some say that but actually measure more or less, 597x597 or 602x602. All little things worth checking before sticking them down. I'd personally start with a line down the center of the room and stick the whole tiles and take the time doing the cutting. Would give a nice balance to the room that way.

The floor as it is i would be reluctant to tile but i dont know how solid it is although 9mm is to thin. Hardie backer boards are good and ive put the 12mm down on my bathroom floor on top of the existing floor boards. i have a very small floor though and it was very solid. The boards are very strong and the 6mm board is for floors. A bit of advice, adhesive goes off quickly on backer boards.

The matting is also a good idea and i have used it on top of ply when i wasnt sure of the thickness and it was fine.
600x600 tiles are not an easy tile to lay and its always best to lift the tile to check the coverage of adhesive.

This is only my thoughts and although ive been tiling 5 years im not an expert and am still learning all the time.

Good luck

[Daz]

Okay, apologies if I have missed some thread comments but I don't really understand why there are so many posts relating to Ditra or A.N.Other decoupling membrane when the main issue is the thickness of the ply.

A decoupling membrane will not add strength to the floor, it will only assist with lateral tile stresses.

Cement boards do not add strength to a floor so they will only improve the tiling substrate from a moisture sensitive point of view and maybe help with the fact that there are no expansion gaps between the ply.

My advice is, if you still intend to tile, then use Ardex 7001 or Mapei Keraquick with Latex as they are probably the 2 most flexible adhesives designed to tile onto wood based substrates. There are no guarantees that you will not get a long term failure though.

Good luck,

Daz

[1st timer]

Okay, apologies if I have missed some thread comments but I don't really understand why there are so many posts relating to Ditra or A.N.Other decoupling membrane when the main issue is the thickness of the ply.

A decoupling membrane will not add strength to the floor, it will only assist with lateral tile stresses.

Cement boards do not add strength to a floor so they will only improve the tiling substrate from a moisture sensitive point of view and maybe help with the fact that there are no expansion gaps between the ply.

My advice is, if you still intend to tile, then use Ardex 7001 or Mapei Keraquick with Latex as they are probably the 2 most flexible adhesives designed to tile onto wood based substrates. There are no guarantees that you will not get a long term failure though.

Good luck,

Daz

was planning on either the ardex 7001 or bal single part, also looked at the granfix although thought there must be a reason as to why its cheaper than the others,
tile gaps - i was planning on 2mm +/- what ever the tile size permits, only using the odd spacer for checking gaps and more relying on the chalk lines and good eye, dont have the tile as yet so unsure of size consistancy like ms.tiles said this could be a factor in the tile gaps,
i was going to be buttering every tile to be sure of good contact especialy with such a large tile,

really wasnt planning to start from centre of room as the way its working out so i have almost half a tile width down either side of the kitchen once i knock through, in doing this it also means no cut at the living room end guess i have to compromise either a cut at either end of dining/livingroom then having not good cuts when it comes to kitchen,
expansion gaps in the ply are not a problem i can easily remove a row of screws and run a saw across it,
as for the ply thickness im now unsure if i will be tiling at all, being a joiner i have worked in hundreds of properties some new some old and some comercial and i can say i have seen some floors with stacks of movment that you can feel under foot as you walk, the floor in my house down stairs has no movment under foot probably due to the joists not spanning far on brick/wood wall plate every 1700mm or so, just been looking at my wood samples this morning again

[diamondtiling]

You dont have to start from the middle of the room, just work out your lines and start with the first full tile and fix the cuts as you go. As for a membrane being fitted I would always opt for one just to be on the safe side. I agree with Daz's advice but they do serve a purpose especially over timber, by utilising one you are just coverering more potential problems in the future. If you can add some expansion joints into the ply then that has to be a positive.
Only you can fully assess any bounce in the floor.

All the best pal.

[TF Ed]

some good points made above

i know where daz is coming from because it really is important to understand what each process achieves. as most of the lads on here regularly state....

the ply along with the joists = structural support and strength
the decoupling membrane = copes with the lateral (side to side) movement.
the overboarding in backer boards = a 'more' stable and water resistant surface compared to a ply wood on which to tile.

if you are going to tile on to ply wood, then it has to have the necessary structural support, other wise it will fail, simple as that.

if you dont want to use a backer board or a decoupling membrane then thats the fixers decision, but a 2 part flexible adhesive is a must if this is the case.

hope it all works out ok for you
ed

[1st timer]

ok guys so i have not given up just yet on tiling the floor,

I was looking again at powders and come across Bal Single Part Fastflex, it says its a highly flexible adhesive that can be used on t&g flooring, or plywood etc
is there any reason why i couldnt use this?
if they are saying its good for t&g and i have skinned my 22mm t&g with 9mm plywood then i would have thought this wood be enough if i use this adhesive,
also been looking at the Bal SBR would you say i should prime the face of the floor with this? or will this stop the tile from sticking?
sorry for all the questions but i if im going to try this i would rather try and use the proper stuff where ever i can, (i know i have already screwed up with the 9mm ply)

[Del W]

Info on what youve looked at. Bear in mind that youll have no where to go if the floor fails because of the thickness of the ply.

http://194.223.92.131/pdf/Technical%...t_Fastflex.pdf

[jay]

Best to take the advice on offer from the forum the ply is the problem .if the prepwork is not right then it will bite you later