dispute

[advancetiling]

Hi all,
whats your views on this:
Been called out to report on then retile a job which a previous tilers made a right hash of.
From our findings hes overboarded chipboard with 5mm ply then dot and dab the floor tiles.600x300 porcelain.According to customer he then tipped grout down the sink which has caused a flood and debonded many tiles.Quite a few are cracked and hollow due to insufficient coverage.On further inspection,hes packed quite a few out with cardboard from the tile box.Laughable really.This is going to court soon and i think its a cut and dried case but the tiler has had his own independant report done with a builder(who i suspect is his mate).He claims the tiling is to a good standard and that the flood would have debonded the tiles regardless.(he fails to acknowledge the flood was the tilers fault).Theres also bad lippage,cracked grout etc.I suspect hes probably used pva on the floor also.The customer is really worried in case the judge rules against her.What do you think,anything else i can put to her to reassure her that its entirely the tilers fault?

[jay]

interesting
yes the flood caused the tiles to debond (as its on chipboard), and have they any proof that the tiler blocked the sink causing the flood

workmanship is a different case. thats my take on it

[Colour Republic]

Every fault you find in your report I would back it up with a cut and paste job from either British Standards (i.e. acceptable levels of lipping, overboarding requirements) and/or some text from say the adhesive manfacturers (i.e. their recommendations of the application of adhesive... maximum depth of adhesive... primers to be used...). State the facts clearly backed up with a ton of photos highlighting each problem

[GirlRacerRed]

because this is not a criminal court situation, you won't be required to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the original tilers actions were to blame for the flooding and therefore the subsequent failure of the tiling job. I think from your point of few, you have to be satisfied that the original tilers work did not meet British Standards (ignoring the flooding, as that may have just brought about the failure sooner rather than later) and prove that PVA was used, that 5mm ply was used and that the large format tiles were dot and dabbed. once you're satisfied that your report can prove all of these issues to be the fault of the original tiler, then the judge should be more than happy to make the right decision. if there is proof that the tiler did indeed block the sink with grout (any photographic evidence?) then this should also be added to your report.

photo's to emphasis each failing, plus your take on how it should have been fitted in the first place, should make any reasonable judge see sense.

that's just my two-penneth, and I'm not a lawyer so cannot advise legally. but it sounds like your client has a strong case if all the original tiler is claiming is that his job is to standard.

[advancetiling]

I suppose its just the clients word against the tilers regarding the grout down the sink.But even in areas which have not been water affected the overboarding and coverage is simply not adequate.He has used flexy addy but surely 5mm ply and cardboard packing out is not acceptable and has played a major part in the failure.Some pictures are on my profile page (some shockers weve been called out to)

[andy allen]

did the customer give him the chance to put the work right?

[advancetiling]

Apparently hes been back and replaced broken tiles twice.I agree that water has played a part but this wouldnt cause the tiles to crack and break.In some places the addy has been built up 10mm

[GirlRacerRed]

oooh, now that just raised another question - do you have proof of what adhesive was used? I can't find it in your post, but I'm sure you said the original tiler used flexy addy. Is there any evidence of this? retained packaging by the customer? I'm not sure which adhesives will allow for a build up of 10mm but I'm sure some of the other guys will know tech specs.

[jay]

what is the reason it is going to court
flood damage

or poor workmanship

[andy allen]

its a tricky one, lots of things to take into account, how much deflection is there on for floor, is it a floating floor.

thing is if the chipboard floor is rock solid, he over boards with ply uses thick bed addy that can go to 20mm, and although all of us wouldnt you these methods to tile read the back of the flexable addy bags and they say suitable for ply, some chip board ect.

however dot dab, pva, cardboard in the mix well i dont think you will have much of a problem proving hes a chancer

[advancetiling]

on his quote it said flexible adhesive.not sure which brand.ill find that out with customer.Also,you wont be surprised to know that he was hired from "my builder" ive done a check on him/googled him and nothing comes up. His price was extortionate as well taking into account how poor the prep and standard was

[hillhead]

Sound bad, if all is true then he hasn't adhered to BS i quite a few respects.
Lippage, dot and dab, 5mm ply etc.
All wrong and will fall in court.
The grout down the sink is her word against his, not conclusive.
Awkward one too.
The builders report doesn't help matters so another report is needed from the TTA or something.

[advancetiling]

Jay,its down to poor workmanship with the court case.The builder is definately playing on the flood aspect.Do you reckon a de coupling membrane may have been beneficial with regards to protecting/waterproofing the wood

[Colour Republic]

Not sure the builders report could have any weight if it's just an opinion without anything to back it up, what's he going to say, that d&d is ok?

[Dave]

All you need to do is compile a report that the installation is not to BS5385, do not assume anything that he might have done could have caused this and that if you have no proof.. simply base the report of how it should have been fixed and that the method used would result in a failure..

You might be asked what qualifies you to do a report though..

[jay]

depends on the case whats the claim for!!!!!!
better prep work would of helped but you dont have w/p rules over there but chipboard is bad if it gets wet and even a job done right will fail on that stuff

[Del W]

Every fault you find in your report I would back it up with a cut and paste job from either British Standards (i.e. acceptable levels of lipping, overboarding requirements) and/or some text from say the adhesive manfacturers (i.e. their recommendations of the application of adhesive... maximum depth of adhesive... primers to be used...). State the facts clearly backed up with a ton of photos highlighting each problem

[Scott]

All you need to do is compile a report that the installation is not to BS5385, do not assume anything that he might have done could have caused this and that if you have no proof.. simply base the report of how it should have been fixed and that the method used would result in a failure..

You might be asked what qualifies you to do a report though..

Id point them to the forum and show them my big fat shiny green badge! :O

[Colour Republic]

Id point them to the forum and show them my big fat shiny green badge! :O

I'd point them to Daves profile and say 'He made me do it'

[Dave]

I don't think the OP has a nice shiny green badge..

[Colour Republic]

I don't think the OP has a nice shiny green badge..

Neither do you Admin are just here to keep the place tidy and do the general house keeping








Joke! joke! step away from the big bad button

[Del W]

Neither do you Admin are just here to keep the place tidy and do the general house keeping








Joke! joke! step away from the big bad button

[Dave]

Neither do you Admin are just here to keep the place tidy and do the general house keeping








Joke! joke! step away from the big bad button

Mmmm let me see......

Err shall let sweat for a bit before I do it

[Colour Republic]

[macten]

Surely if grout down the sink caused a flood then the u bend and waste will be caked in grout.

[Oli]

No offence but if your having to ask on the forum about anything else, then you shouldnt be putting it in a report, escpecially considering that the tiler appears to have had a report of his own done too and you dont know who did it or there qualifications.

If your called to court, which i would say is highley likley as there is a counter report to yours then your going to be asked every detail about what you put in your report and why it differs to the report the other person has produced. If you come across as being unsure because its not something youve picked up on yourself then your going to do more harm than good for the customer.

I would also reccommend that you take photographs of any defects you've highlighted in your report as memory aids for the court day and that you copy and paste the relevant BS extracts into your report as well so that its there infront of you as you go through your report infront of the judge. You want to have all the information that your going to present in front of you, without having to reffer to books or guides, the best way to do this is to copy and paste into your report.

Also on the day remember that although judges will probably have heard thousands of cases like this, there not tilers or builders, so photographs that you can show illustrating whats wrong really help to make your point. If you can convince the judge that you are more credible that the other sides 'expert' then you have 2/3rds of the battle won.

I would make the opening paragraph on your report along the lines of "I have worked as a domestic and commercial tiler for x years, i learnt the trade by working as an apprentice for x years / at x college...etc etc. I have completed X amount of installations including domestic bathrooms, kitchens, blah blah blah. In x years I have had X callbacks or failures. I have been called X times to asses and correct faulty installations. I have the following proffesional qualifications blah blah blah, basically setting out your history and why your qualified / able to provide the report in the first place. This will make you look very proffesional. Also the more information you give the less questions will be asked of you meaning there will be less chance of you being asked a question you dont know the answer to. If you start having to say "I dont know" your credibilty will drop rapidly. The builder or his solicitor will be trying to attack your credibilty because they know full well this is the easiest way to get the judge to side with them.

I hope thats helpfull.