Help!: Calling all Tilers-what are my rights after being a victim of a bodge job-Dot & Dab

[oracle]

Heres the situation. We got a builder in to sort out our bathroom. We agreed on a price in exchange for him to knock out a small chimney, take off old tiles and lino and put on new wall and floor tiles and to replace/fit the whole bathroom suite (basin, bath & toilet). We were to pay him only for labour, we provided all the materials.

He has taken the little chimney out, ripped out our old suite, plastered the walls and subsequently tiled and grouted the walls & floor.

But theres a problem.

Firtsly he has messed up the border part of the tiles (the wall tiles are different on the bottom, has a border in the middle and then different tiles on the top). The border follows one pattern on one wall and then on the opposite wall, he has turned the border upside down and put it on.

Secondly, allot of the wall tiles and floor tiles are uneven.

Thirdly & most worryingly, he has used a method i believe is known as 'dot and dab' when tiling the wall tiles. Basically, he put adhesive on the corner of the tiles, as opposed to putting it evenly on the wall and then laying the tile on it. When i challenged him about it, he said that theres nothing wrong doing it his way and that there wont be any problems as a result of it and that it was because our walls are really bad (i thought that plastering it would have sorted it). When you knock on the tiles, they all sound different, even different parts of the same tile has an echo sort of sound.

Fourthly, i have asked him several times to Earth Bond the taps and bath/bathtaps when he gets round to installing the new bath and he keeps telling me that its not necessary and that he has been fitting in baths for a decade without earthing & its never been a problem. He has even cut off the existing green & yellow cable and tiled the floor.

We also had him run down two electrical wires from the loft to the bathroom side walls for some new lights, and a friend of my father, who is in the trade checked & said that he has not run them down properly & that it could short out.

Needless to say i do not wish for this guy to continue to carry out any more work in my property.

Heres the problem. We have not paid him anything yet. We have not told him that we do not wish for him to continue his work. He is waiting for us to call him once our bath suite comes, so that he can come and install it in order to complete the job & collect his money. What should we do? Should we pay him for the part of the work he has carried out (which is ruining £1000 worth of tiles and materials, that will now have to be taken off and replaced, not to mention new labour for someone else to fit it in) or is there anything i can quote him or do to justify not paying him when he comes around next? The way im seeing it is that we agreed he would do certain things, which he has not delivered on/fulfilled (by doing a shoddy substandard job which probably wouldnt even meet British Standards), and we will be further out of pocket by getting new materials/tiler/plumber, so why should i pay him on top of it all. If anything, i should be asking him to pay for the materials.

Any help/advice/experience would be appreciated as i would like to handle the situation as amicably as possbile when i tell him of my decision, and do not wish for him to try and convince me otherise that he has done a safe, secure, solid job & get taken in by his assurities & guarantees, i would rather quote him or be able to prove to him that what he has done is unethical & unacceptable.

Sorry about this being too long and do let me know if you think im being wrong here & for what reasons.

[andy allen]

dont pay him a penny till the work is done correctly and to your satisfaction, however you do have to give him the chance to put it right.

[kevin67]

ask him to put right the damage and if he refuses don't pay him.

[Sir Ramic]

It may be worth your while contacting professional trades and paying for reports from them.

[garretridge]

at least you have not parted with your money yet but as above you need to give him a chance to put all your issues right but dot and dab is not acceptable for tiling probably fail sometime. If you were to drill into them to hang a mirror or cabnet they would crack at least or fall of the wall especially if tubbed adhesive was used shoddy work stand your ground until he fixes everything!

[oracle]

Thanks guys, i didnt even think about the implications of fitting shelves etc, which we have planned to (toilet roll holder, towel rail, mirror, 2 glass shelves, clothes hook, soap dish, shower rail riser, shower rail no name a few)

[oracle]

Would that mean that he should have to pay for tiles/material out of his own pocket this time round, should they have to be replaced? If he/anyone else was to lay the tiles properly, could the old tiles be salvaged, with the dabs of adhesives laid unevenly on them or would new tiles in most cases be necessary?

[Dave]

The tiling should be fixed to standard that meets BS5386 and if he does not meet this standard then he is no tiler..

You can get an independent report done and the standard and methods used and this will give you evidence to show him that it is not up to scratch.

Now this can be done by a person who is qualified to produce reports that will stand up in a court of law should it go that far or the use of an Association that do these reports for the public and fixers alike..

This company below do a lot of these reports and can advise fully what rights you have etc.

but do bare in mind it isn't cheap to get a report done but expenses can be claimed against the builders

The Tile Association
E-mail info@tiles.org.uk

[TF Ed]

i have read this and i am going to put another angle on it just for a un-biased read..

my take on this, is
1. your not happy with the work he's done?
2. you dont want to pay him anything at all.

you seemed to be happy for this guy to to the tiling, some electrical work and some plumbing.

if you wanted the job doing correctly, then isnt it in some way your responsibility to ensure you got the right tradeperson, to do the right trade?

if you were not happy with his fixing methods (dot and dab)
his lack of plumbing skills (earthing the sanitary ware)
electrical work??

then why didnt you get rid of him at an earlier stage?
why?? let him get that far and then decide you dont want to pay?

just looking at some other angles that a solicitor might look at...its always good to have 2 views on an angle if you get my drift...

[Dan]

If you withhold payment it can go against you. What you're meant to do is pay, then go through small claims to win a case for the problem areas to be put right. The guy has to be given a chance to go through a snag list type scenario, or you both agree a third party should do the work.

An independent tilers view on it will help your side of the case. TTA do one, but any fully qualified independent tiler can do one for you. But not the same tiler as the one that's putting it right, if it isn't the guy that originally did it.

We see loads of these cases and there isn't a clear pattern or set of laws particularly covering you so it tends to differ from case to case. Seek legal advice and ensure your making notes of all important dates etc.

You can't withhold the full payment though.

I also agree with Aston a bit here too but without seeing the job fully and listening to both parties involved I wouldn't want to judge.

[kilty55]

hello,can i see some pics please of the dodgy tiling before i comment,thanks

[Sir Ramic]

As he hasnt actually finished then he cant expect payment can he ?
I would talk to this guy about your concerns.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesnt electical stuff need to be signed off by an electrician ?
Also I am not sure about the earthing /bonding of taps. Maybe you should visit our other forums Electricians Forum | Electrical Advice Forum | An electrical forum for electricians in the UK | Electricians Forum
Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK

[nybor62]

one thing if he as fixed the tiles the way you say , you may be able to save alot of them.

i do hope you get this sorted , this type of malpractice seems to be getting more common nowadays

as others have said give him the chance to put it right , maybe give him a part payment and the rest when the work is satisfactory

[Dan]

As he hasnt actually finished then he cant expect payment can he ?
I would talk to this guy about your concerns.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesnt electical stuff need to be signed off by an electrician ?
Also I am not sure about the earthing /bonding of taps. Maybe you should visit our other forums Electricians Forum | Electrical Advice Forum | An electrical forum for electricians in the UK | Electricians Forum
Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK

Ahhhh, right, sorry, didn't read it all. That does change things.

[oracle]

i have read this and i am going to put another angle on it just for a un-biased read..

my take on this, is
1. your not happy with the work he's done?
2. you dont want to pay him anything at all.

you seemed to be happy for this guy to to the tiling, some electrical work and some plumbing.

if you wanted the job doing correctly, then isnt it in some way your responsibility to ensure you got the right tradeperson, to do the right trade?

if you were not happy with his fixing methods (dot and dab)
his lack of plumbing skills (earthing the sanitary ware)
electrical work??

then why didnt you get rid of him at an earlier stage?
why?? let him get that far and then decide you dont want to pay?

just looking at some other angles that a solicitor might look at...its always good to have 2 views on an angle if you get my drift...

I see your point. We got his number from a leaflet that was posted which said that he did all of these works, including loft work, extensions etc, so it was reasonable to think that if he personally couldnt do this work, that he would be contracted with someone that could. Like ive mentioned in my OP, i did challenge his methods only to be given assurities that hes doing it properly. It wasnt until my dads friend came and looked at the bathroom that we realised that it was worse then we had imagined. Since then we have not had him do any more work. He is due to come over in an hour or so to 'collect some money', dont think it will go down so well when we tell him we are not happy with the work. We are prepared to give him a chance to put the work right, but ofcourse we will not be paying for the material this time round, so its not a matter of not paying him, we will if the job is done to atleast British Standards.

[oracle]

I wouldnt want to pay him and then pursue him through small claims court, i dont know where he lives or anything.

[garythetiler]

As he hasnt actually finished then he cant expect payment can he ?
I would talk to this guy about your concerns.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesnt electical stuff need to be signed off by an electrician ?
Also I am not sure about the earthing /bonding of taps. Maybe you should visit our other forums Electricians Forum | Electrical Advice Forum | An electrical forum for electricians in the UK | Electricians Forum
Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK

The way I undestand it if he has provided a service even if its incomplete he is entitled to recieved payment for this, what you and he decide is fair payment will be vastly different ,it will probably end up in court and any judge will be thinking what is a reasonable outcome, its unreasonable to expect perfection and its also unreasonable for the work to be extremely shoddy and dangerous you have to give the guy the chance to put the mistakes right but i would do all correspondance by post or e-mail so you have evidence to produce in court, good luck with this ,its never good when the client falls out with the contractor as you both end up losing in the long run

[Dan]

The way I undestand it if he has provided a service even if its incomplete he is entitled to recieved payment for this, what you and he decide is fair payment will be vastly different ,it will probably end up in court and any judge will be thinking what is a reasonable outcome, its unreasonable to expect perfection and its also unreasonable for the work to be extremely shoddy and dangerous you have to give the guy the chance to put the mistakes right but i would do all correspondance by post or e-mail so you have evidence to produce in court, good luck with this ,its never good when the client falls out with the contractor as you both end up losing in the long run

That's where I was coming from. A professional independent needs to check each of the works for it to even get to court. And the guy's done a lot of the work so really, should that be covered at least, and then argue it out professional be it in or out of court?

As for not wanting to pay him and then arrange something. I'd be very careful doing that. You took on the guy and trusted them to come in to your home and both agreed the works before hand, along with the payment for those works, and until it's been independently judged, the tradesmen who claims it's his job has the upper hand in some sense because only now the job is complete (or near to) are you stopping the works and withholding payment. Small claims don't like that, it creates a trend and society of non-payers, and we all know the banks own the courts in this country lol so they take a dim view of that.

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

i stand to be corrected here , But i understood that British standards are only guidelines and that you do not have to be working to this standard!! lot of work every day carried out by builders are not up to BS

[Brinkley]

just a thought does it matter if this guy is insured? because if it does go to court and it turns out hes not qualified or insured that could be a bummer for him doing the plumbing and electrics. sounds like a multi non skilled cowboy to me.

[Barry bp]

The bath needs earthing if copper pipes conected if piped up with plastic pipe it does not but any electrical work in bathroom has to meet part p and be tested and given a certificate this could be more dangerous than the tiling!

[Sir Ramic]

The bath needs earthing if copper pipes conected if piped up with plastic pipe it does not but any electrical work in bathroom has to meet part p and be tested and given a certificate this could be more dangerous than the tiling!

That was my thinking on the matter but wasnt sure.

[hillhead]

Any sign of the horse coming up the street yet?
Cowboy for sure even without seeing pics yet.
Get some pics up here so we can judge better but by the sounds of it he has made a complete hash of it.

[whitebeam]

Was tubbed adhesive or powdered used for the wall tiling.

[saveloy]

The bath needs earthing if copper pipes conected if piped up with plastic pipe it does not but any electrical work in bathroom has to meet part p and be tested and given a certificate this could be more dangerous than the tiling!

Bonding copper pipes to bath is sufficient(no need to bond bath as well) if supplementary bonding is required. However under certain conditions supplementary bonding of bathrooms can be omitted now. I doubt if the OP's builder would know if this bathroom meets these conditions though!!

[Barry bp]

I did mean the pipes to the bath as most baths are acrylic and its the taps to the bath that would need protection i feel the builder should have gone to the consumer unit to check rcd protection and discussed with customer before doing any elecrical work

[leeh]

give him the opp to fix, if not no payment. He will pay for new materials. As the others have said, get the right trades person for the job.

[GaryS]

almost guaranteed this guy will use plastic pipes as copper is more expensive so bonding them will prob not be an issue dot and dab will work if there are enough dots and dabs though just putting it on corners will not work and tiles will prob fail, not sure how you can run a cable in that isnt safe unless it is joined or too small for required ampage or connected wrong ie spur on spur, the elecrtical work is what is most concerning as this needs to be done right or someone can be very dead.

[Ajax123]

this looks like an interesting one. Here is a completely different way of looking at it.

as I see it you formed a contract with this guy for him to provide certain services. If he has completed the contract then you should pay him. If he has not then you are not obliged to pay him. You cannot claim that he has not fulfilled the contract on the basis that he has not conformed to British Standards as there appears to be no deffinition of quality laid down in the contract terms. British Standards are simply codes of practice which outline the way things should be done in order to ensure that an product, service or installation is carried out to a minimum standard. Carrying out low quality work is not against the law (sadly). If he has been contracted to remove tiles and then put tiles back on the wall then as I see it he has fulfilled that part of the contract.


He has a duty of care to offer a reasonable standard of workmanship and if he does not possess the level of skill required to carry out the work to that standard then he should not be accepting the contract. You could possibly sue him for breach of contract. This would come down to what a court would deem reasonable and this would generally involve expert opinion which tends to draw from British standards and manufacturer recommendations.

By the same token you would need to show a court that you had shown due dilligence in outlining your requirements and by selecting a contractor based on his expertise and the acceptable quality of his work.

If he has carried out work which he is not legally qualified to carry out e.g. Part p electrics then he will not be covered by insurance as he will be deemed to be negligent. However in this instance then it is possible that he has committed a criminal offence.

I look froward to seeing how this one pans out. I, however, would not be paying him.

[oracle]

Thanks Jimmy and sherlock for your thoughtful advice.

The builder came around earlier, wanting to be paid for his partial work. We took him upstairs, showed him the border and he said "so". We then told him that we wernt happy with the way he laid the tiles and he said that our walls were really bad and that the work is good and that the tiles wont falls off and if they did then to call him.

I went on to say that the walls were plastered before the tiles were put on so how can the walls not be right for tiling like they were supposed to be. He started banging his hand on a tile and said 'nothing will happen they are solid'. I then told him that it doesnt meet British standards and if he is adamant that he has done a good job then i shall get a third party report collated and if the outcome is that the tiles are not laid properly, i expect him to pay for the report and if it says that the job is done to a good standard then we will bare the cost and pay him for what he has partially done.

He then said that he will re do all the work again if we provide the materials/tiles. I told him that he will be responsible for all correctional costs. He didn't admit liability and maintained that the work was done properly (although doesnt deny dotting and dabbing).

At this point he walked down the stairs and out of the house whilst we were saying to him that we should sit down and talk about this properly. He got into his car, i went up to his window to try and convince him to talk about this and reach a resolution, he seemed to be angry, he started his car and sped off.

He called 20 minutes later, was fuming, shouted allot, didnt make much sense, didnt understand a word he was saying and he then hanged up. I dont know what to make of it to be honest.

I think a good outcome would be if we didnt pay him and got the remaining work done from someone else. The best outcome would be if he corrected his work, but thats not going to happen, considering the material costs more then the job was worth.

He didnt give any certificate for the electrical work he done.