Help!: Please Help! Problem with Porcelain Floor Tiles - Wobbly

[Milly]

Hi,

I had underfloor heating and large poreceain tiles fitted a few months back and a month after they were fitted, some of the tiles became wobbly - they literally wobble when you stand on these, or walk across them. The grouting between the tiles also came out in a lot of the tiles.

I called the tiler back and he said that it was a fault with the floor as the builder should have levelled it before he began his work. He didn't tell us this at the time and I am unsure if he is just trying to blame the builder to get away with it. The builder had nothing to do with the flooring, tiling or the underfloor heating. These taks had been commissioned to the tiler.

I even pai him extra for some floor boards as he said he needed to buy them to 'level' the flooring; so I don't understand what the issue is.

Also - the underfloor heating in part of the area does not work. He is now (with a lot of pushing), arranging for the underfloor manufacturer to come and test the underfloor heating to see if i is a manufacturing fault.

Do you think this is the tilers fault or something to do with the floor? Can I take the matter further? I paid a lot for the work and a lot of the tiles move, grout between tiles has come out, and part of my underfloor heating doesn't and hasn't worked since he fitted it.

Please can you help shed light on this, I'd be grateful!

Thanks!

[Dave]

Hello Milly and welcome..


Can you tell us what type of subfloor you have under this tiling etc..?

[nybor62]

before we start blaming the tiler what was the floor substrate , you mentioned floor boards he used to level the floor , what prep work did he do with the floor , did he ply it or or use insulation boards ,was there any slc used to level the floor , by the sounds of it there is far to much movement in the floor , or wrong adhesive and grout used

[Scott]

Hi and welcome to the fourm.

What is the floor laid on? We really need more information on whether its concrete, timber floorboards or chipboard etc. Also what the adhesives and preparation were.

Im assuming it electric under floor heating (UFH) when you say part isnt working.

[Scott]

Beat me to it ^^

[nybor62]

Beat me to it ^^

sorry pal

[Phil Hobson]

As above, more info on sub-floor please

[Milly]

Thanks everyone for such prompt comments.. ok:

1) Yes, electric underfloor heating.

2) The tiling is from the hall to the kitchen. The hall area had wooden floor boards and in the kitchen there is half concrete and half wooden floor boards.

3) I gave the tiler plywood for the levelling as he requested.

4) Ref. grouting etc - I have no idea what brand and method. When the work was being carried out, I wasn't in the house (had not moved in yet) and he had asked for the key, so I had just given it to him to compelte the work. I did once see that he used the cement type adhesive on the back of the tile before pressing it down onto the floor though.

[Milly]

and thanks for welcoming me to the forum

[Dave]

So where the mixed subfloors meet.. did he just tile over this section / joint..?

[Milly]

he used the plywood to make the level across the kitchen uniform (where the concrete floor met the wooden floor), across the concrete floor area. Then he just laid the underfloor heating in areas with the adhesive, and then put the tiles on top. He applied the tile adhesive on the tiles, before pressing it down.

[nybor62]

omg, wrong wrong wrong what thickness was the ply, sounds like he as dot and dab the tiles , not slc over ufh , the under floor heating will burn out because the wires arn't full covered ,

[Dave]

Ok.. so you have wood on all the floor area now.. as in he screwed it down to the concrete section..?

This is deffo Fixer error and you must call him back to see why they have de-bonded.. and when he does then check how much coverage he has on the back of the tiles to floor bond.

With out actually seeing it, it is hard to say what has happened but no movement joint can cause stress... is this area where the tiles have come loose.?

[Phil Hobson]

As Dave Milly, expansion joints are needed where timber and solid floors meet. No self leveling compound over heating mat is not good, also back buttering tiles is not ideal, sub-floor should be serrated, then tiles back skimmed to ensure solid bed fix.

I would get the tiler back

[Milly]

The plywood was very thin sheets. He screwed it down to the concrete.

I made a mistake in 1 of my responses: he laid plywood all over the kitchen floor not just the side that needed to be raised.

The movement is everywhere. Mostly on the areas you most walk on.

When the underfloor heating went on initially, you could hear a noise as though the adhesive was crackling. Could there be an issue with the underfloor heating adhesive that's caused the movement?

The tiler asked me not to be in whilst he completed the work so I'm afraid I didn't see the work in action from scratch.

I saw him lift some of the floor tiles once and the underfloor heating wires looked loose - they didn't have much of the underfloor heating tape on them and there was no adhesive on the floor. He only applied it to the tiles when laying them.

Also - the grouting, a lot has come out from between the tiles.

[Phil Hobson]

Milly, when you say the ply was "very thin" how thin? I am thinking this job has been botched

[doug boardley]

to be brutally honest Milly, it sounds as tho' he's broken every standard in the book, is it possible to post us some pics please.

[whitebeam]

A few issues there

[kilty55]

how quikly after tiling was the underfloor heating turned on milly

to be honest it sounds a complete cowboy job

[Scott]

Oh dear Milly he has done it all wrong by the sounds of it. The ply should be thick not thin 15mm minimum. The grout has come out because the tiles are loose and creating a space for it to move. Thats the least of the trouble im afraid. The ufh wire is best encapsulated in a self levelling compound (SLC) but it can be laid in the tile adhesive as the floor tiles required 100% coverage with no voids in the adhesive. Therefore it wont burn out, howevr it sounds like he has dot and dabbed the tiles, also called spot fixing. This isnt the right way to do it and its easy to spot as they sound hollow when you tap them.

If you can get a picture on it would be helpful. How big an area are we talking about?

[Milly]

thanks for your comments.

I'm not sure how thick the plywood was, but it was thin, I'd say it was about 0.75cm thick. I will include a photo of this in my album for you to see.

I'll upload some photos of the work whilst it was being carried out. Please can you take a look and thanks for your advice, I'm grateful.

you will notice from one of the photos there is the adhesive all over the floor before tiles went down, however when the builder came back a couple of months after the work was done and lifted a few of the wobbly tiles, I noticed there was no cement type grout/adhesive underneath and he re-stuck the tiles with adhesive on the tile, not on the ground. Unfortunately he only looked at 2 times and both are wobbly again (and more).

Now he is unresponsive, avoids my calls, texts etc and just seems to be dragging everything. I would be grateful of any advice form you as to the best way forward. What can I do? What shall I ask him to do to rectify the problem?

Thanks.

[doug boardley]

I honestly don't think that any retro repairs will cure this Milly, I really think that the only way to cure it will be a total rip out and re-start from scratch.

[Scott]

With Doug n this im afraid. If he has attempted to fix it once already and that has failed agian then the problem is obviously still there. Id leave him a message and tell him to get his backside round to see you. As for the legal side of things no one on here can advise you on that BUT i would tell him you are going to go down that route if necessary. That may just gee him up a bit.

The floor doesnt conform to british standards so while that isnt the 'law' it is the way things should be done and that where the 15mm ply stipulation comes from. Thereshoul dbe control joints between the two differnt substrates as the wood and concrete will 'move' at different rates to each other. A decouping membrane would have helped with this as well.

How large an area is it and where about are you based?

[Milly]

Thanks guys for your comments. The entire area is about 50 sq. ft (hallway, landing and kitchen area). The underfloor heating was zoned, part of which does not work and never has since it was installed. Brought a lot of tiles and he evne used my reserve tiles (due to cracking some) - I only have 1 tile left. I'm in London NW.

I had contacted trading standards (as I tried calling the tiler so many times but he does not respond and told me the problem is not his fault and that he doesn't even need to come).. anyway: Trading standards said I should write a letter to him if he doesn't respond when I try to call him. Do you think this is a good idea? Is there some 'rouge traders' type of organisation I could go to to try and get him to give me my money back?

Had to save up a lot to get the work done and it's a shame this has happened. Never been experienced with this sort of stuff before (not a DIY person either - no offence!!!). Can't afford to have it re-done. I would like him to pay me back for the tiling work so I can have it re-done, to be honest. I uploaded some photos.

[Scott]

I cant see the pictures the album is empty. You need to resize them to get them on. You can do it in windows live photo if you have it or a similar program

There is always the small claims court you can take him too but you will need to seek proper legal advice on that to see what procedures you need to follow. I understand that you need to offer him the chance to recify it but it would appear that he has already tried to do that. Therefore you may be able to claim that you have lost confidence in him and dont want him back to put it right. However that all needs checking with a legal representative, trading standards or citizens advice may be able to help.

There are reports you can have caried out to assess the quality of the work carried out, this will involve the methods used in the laying of the tiles and whether they are right or wrong. However the TTA (Tiling association) reports are a lot of money, i have heard somewhere between £6-800. You could always get a written report from a professional tiler as this would also help your case.

[Milly]

thank you for the tips. Ok... I will take a look at the album to resize; thanks.

[Milly]

done! thanks

[Scott]

Milly we are not allowed to swear on the forum but that is bloomin awful!

As suspected he hasnt got enough coverage on the tiles, they should be 100% coverage and the adhesive should really be trowel and keyed on to the floor. the tiles are then set into the adhesive and not sat on random blobs of it!

In the last picture why isnt there any adhesive on the ply after the tiles have been removed? What is goin gon with the ufh? that fixing is a joke, just not a funny one.

Was the ply properly fixed to the floor? Not that it will make a difference as its not thick enough anyway

There are so many things wrong with it, the ply is wrong, method of fixing, setting out. Why is there a small cut about 50mm down the side of the room? Is that repeated on the other side of the room or has he started with a full tile?

This bloke is NOT a tiler! Please pursue him to get your money back, we see things like this all the time and a lot of people just put it down to experience and move on but its not right. There are some really really good tilers on here and some not so busy because there are chancers out there like this guy.

Hope you get it sorted

[Milly]

Thanks for shedding some light. You're right there isn't any adhresive under the tiles in the last photo, just bare wires. I noticed when he came back and lifted tiles - it was exactly the same iin these areas. When he fit new tiles in their place, he just used adhesive on the tiles

I have no idea what type as he used to go to his van to mix it.

Ill contact him again and tell him to sort it out. Fully thing is his van says he specialises in kitchens, tiling etc. I just saw a photo I'd taken of hiis van and realised!

When I'd told him I wasn't happy he said its my fault the flooring is wobbly and that him and his tilers are professionals and he has full confidence in his work.

I do want to have the work redone in the near future esp since underfloor heating doesn't work everywhere. I'm glad I found this forum, would prefer to use one of you.

[kevg]

There should be a Rouge Tiler section on this forum, where people can leave details to name and shame so other's don't use these cowboy's. Mind you, if people came here first, then with the experts we have around here people many not get into this mess in the first place.

Anyway, I hope you get a good outcome from this Milly. Good luck.