tiling onto an allready tiled surface

[gravytrain]

hello,

got a customer who has asked to have bathroom tiled on top of existing tiles.

couldn't be persuaded to remove existing tiles, so what adhesive would people recommend for 300 x 400 ceramic tiles

original tiles seem securely bonded to substrate.

many thanks in advance

[mikethetile]

Hi Gravytrain

tile on tile s not reccomemded as although the tiles may appear to be well bonded they may not be and the extra weight may debond the existing tiles

[cornish_crofter]

Hi there Gravytrain

I've done this in the past but I personally would not recommend it. In my case it was a few tiles that came off when I had to remove a shower tray to repair the floor. I explained to the customer that this wasn't a good idea but he was prepared to take the risk, he was quite right in that the other tiles that were on top of tiles hadn't come off.

Unless you really need the work I would walk away. Explain to the customer that you are not prepared to guarantee the strength of the adhesive underneath the old tiles.

[Rich]

As above Im afraid. I have walked away from a fair few of these, I just dont think its worth it. At the end of the day it is going to come down on you if the tiles come off and as Mike said it is pretty much impossible to assess how well the tiles are bonded without taking them off.

[TF Ed]

hi

there are 2 schools of thought out there regarding 'tile on tile'

There are fixers who will tile on tile - if you have a lot of tiling experience and you can read the job well and you are 100%confident/prove that the original substrate and tiles are in a excellent condition to support your new tiles and adhesive now AND years down the line, then it can be done. but even then, it tends to be ceramics on ceramics AND the fixer should be in a position to guarantee their work..

The problem is, there's lots of inexperienced/semi skilled tilers who dont know how to judge this scenario and my strong opinion is. if in doubt , then dont!! it would be a gamble and a wreckless gamble that could cause somebody to get hurt, especially from
large format porcelain and stone tiles falling down!! think of the damage they could cause to a child is it worth it??

so my opinion would be, unless you can 100% guarantee your work, then dont tile on tile..
1. imo, i dont think its a professional installation..
2.theres a greater chance of collapse ( and not always straight away!! but months, or a year or so down the line when the building gets older/deteriorates)
3. I'd rather lose a job and a few days wages, than lose my long term reputation!!


cheers
ed

[Bri]

Gravytrain, Ed (Astontiling) has put all the info you need to know in one post. This scenario comes up on here at least once a week and each time arguments will be put forward for the pros and cons. A pro will always say no! Its a guess if you decide yes!

[timeless john]

What happens if the original tiles have been fixed onto emulsioned plasterboard!
The weight of the new tiling is just within the guidelines ofskimmed plasterboard, but with having the original on as well you will be exceeding the ratios that the plaster supply companies will accept.
The onus will be on you to provide a guarantee for your work and the customer will swear blind he went with your evaluation as a tiling professional.

You may even find by insisting that the old tiling be removed, the customer will have extended faith in your ability.

[gravytrain]

hi

many thanks for your advice, i did try to convince the customer to have old tiles removed but he wasn't to be persuaded.
i must say i was a bit caught out as i've never known anyone else want this doing, i've ripped a few tiles on tiles off, but didn't quite know what to say to someone who actually wants to pay someone to stick tiles on tiles !!!
i will see if he accepts the quote but after reading what you guys have said i won't be tiling on tiles. there is quite a lot of other work as well.
if he wants me to do it he'll have to have the old tiles off or get someone else to do the tiling.

thanks again for your prompt and helpful advice

[Gazrus]

I had a look at a job last week & the bathroom is fully tiled approx 24 m2, I asked about the removal of the old tiles but she is adamant about tiling over the top, I have recommended removing them but she wont budge.
Do I go ahead, knowing there is no guarantee of what may happen?
Or like others have said do I just walk away from it?

[kilty55]

hiya gaz,its not worth the risk imo

even although shes wanting it done if it fails you will be first in the firing line from her,

[Gazrus]

I just come off the phone to her, after explaining the risks etc, she is still insisting on tiling over tiles.
She said they had the bathroom in their old house tiled over tiles 3 times
& it was fine.
Tiles are 250mm x 400mm ceramic

Not sure what to do.

[Dave]

Garry, you need to follow BS5385 guide lines on this..

If the substrate cannot support the next layer then if they fall off then NO disclaimer will help you..

The choice is yours..

[kilty55]

lets put it in better terms gaz,if a tile falls off and hits a child inher bath do you think shes going to let you off the hook?

tell her to forget it is my advice mate,all the best

[Gazrus]

Customer is a young lass & I don't think she grasps the consequences of substrate failure, I have arranged to go see her tomorrow to explain the situation.
Unfortunately if she still insists on continuing with tiling over then I am going to pass on the job as it would be unprofessional of me to knowingly put someone at risk.
Will keep you posted on outcome, thanks for the response guys.

[Bolter]

lets put it in better terms gaz,if a tile falls off and hits a child inher bath do you think shes going to let you off the hook?

tell her to forget it is my advice mate,all the best

Correct, and I reckon the grout will hold large sections together, so likely half the wall will come down if it decides to. Gazrus you could of course provide her kids with safety helmets as a sort of after service freebie

[nybor62]

we did some burger king refurbs many years ago tiling onto existing tiles , but they were only 150 x150 ,
your tile size is a no no , no worth the risk imho

[whitebeam]

I looked at how many posts this thread had had and new straight away what the responses would be....

All to the above

[aph257]

walk away, not even with a disclamer would i have the DEATH of anyone on my conscience.

[TilerJames]

Either walk away or insist that the bathroom needs stripping...too big of a risk just to stick em up on the recommendation of the customer.
Just reiterate in the nicest possible way that YOU are the tiler doing this day in day out and are all too aware of the weight and bonding issues with tile on tile.
At the end of the day if something were to happen, the buck stops with you regardless of whatever the customer might think or suggest at the time.

[gr8 _Tiling]

It is a risky situation gaz, as it was said before some tilers go ahead with it, using an adhiesive which has the ingrediants to hold tile on tile can be fine but its the history of whats going on behind thats worrying and not worth the risk!! if you really need the work maybe you could try talking her into a very cheap daywork price for the removing of tiles

All the best
Garry

[365drills]

I will agree that we have all seen it. We have all come across "tiles on tiles" Take this example....


Where you have white tiles laid over brown.

And I think the practice started back in the time when tiles were much lighter and thinner than they are today.
It seemed easier to work off an already flat surface. Just scratch the glaze and bed some adhesive onto the old tiles.

What concerns me is how EASY it is to pull both sets of tiles of the wall when removing multiple layers.
That tells me the bond is not so strong! When I pulled this lot off the wall there was a mix of weak and strong layers.
Not exactly uniform. And if I were to be bonding todays tiles to this mix? Hmmm not sure I would sleep at night !

Appreciate the customer has their views. Hope you can win them over with experience and advice.

[Gazrus]

K guys i said i would let you know the outcome.
After speaking to customer today, they were still insisting on going ahead with the tile over method.
Even though i could use the work this time of year, I have declined the job, least i can sleep at night with a clear concience.

[kilty55]

your a true pro gaz

[kevg]

There's a lot of people out there that would do this job just to get the money. I think they are called cowboys.

The professionalism and excellent service shown here, just shows that there is a hell of a lot of good people/tilers out there.

Well done all.

[devonmark]

Hi there Gravytrain

I've done this in the past but I personally would not recommend it. In my case it was a few tiles that came off when I had to remove a shower tray to repair the floor. I explained to the customer that this wasn't a good idea but he was prepared to take the risk, he was quite right in that the other tiles that were on top of tiles hadn't come off.

Unless you really need the work I would walk away. Explain to the customer that you are not prepared to guarantee the strength of the adhesive underneath the old tiles.

I would walk away regardless and let someone else get the bad name when it goes .... up

[TilerJames]

nice one Gaz..Shame to loose the job but better to insist on doing it right.

[Gazrus]

K lads n lasses just thought I'd give you an update on the tiling job I declined, I was chatting to a friend of hers last night & she informed me that she got someone else to do it & they tiled over the existing tiles. Apparently the job has turned into a nightmare, quite a few tiles have actually fell off, luckily no one was injured.
All the internal walls still have the old latted plaster on them, very risky tiling onto that too.
As you can imagine how relieved am I by declining the job.

[nybor62]

relieved i bet you are, if only customers would take the advice given, , no sympathy for her

[widler]

jeez,whatever happerned to the 'customers are always right' ,they are aint they,always right,come on all togeather now 'the costomer is always right'.now thats better

the ammount of times you go to jobs and its 'you can do that' 'you can do this' or 'it will only take you a day'.or 'i know someone who did it,it was fine'

me,i just say 'best thing is mate/my dear, get them to do it,or even better,do it yourself,it real easy,honest'

i love these smilies

[merit]

ive had this in the past where customers are adaments that tiling on top of tiles that have been for years without falling off will be fine
ive insisted on taking them off
one customer who wanted a tile on tile job stood in amazement as i took a spade to the existing tiles they wanted me to go on and they fell off in a matter of seconds,
all being blobed ,just grout holding them together
walk away or ask them to sign disclaimer, for me id run