Help me correct a handful of errors of mine please?

[cornish_crofter]

These issues have come up with this wetroom.

With all the problems I've had with delays and other issues etc, my mind hasn't been fully on the job and I have basically made some mistakes.

I could really kick myself. Having now got the opportunity to stand back over the Christmas period and consider my options, rather than be under pressure to get it finished in an unacceptable time frame, I thought I would start this thread and share these with you.

One is with the prep for the final tiling. I used Ditra matting on the floor with Kerdi tape on the walls. When I was planning this I knew that to get the walls level I would have to perhaps remove a small amount of plaster to accomodate the kerdi tape and adhesive. However in my rush to get on with that stage, I basically overlooked this detail. Hence I've now introduced a 'kick' at the bottom of the wall. This has not been helped in one area with 2 layers of kerdi tape overlapping. This brings out the wall by about 6mm at the bottom. A level tells me that otherwise the wall would be pretty plumb most of its length, with maybe a few hollows to fill in near the bottom.

The floor is now laid, and looking good so removing and reapplying the kerdi tape is not really an option, though pulling it away from the wall if the adhesive will stay on the wall has occurred to me, but I suspect that the bond is too strong for that. If that worked I would then have the option of doing what I should have done, remove the top coat of plaster and then re apply adhesive to fix the vertical section of kerdi tape. Then use SPF to bring the bottom of the wall level.

If I can't do that the only other option is to try and take this problem out of the wall, by levelling it out, though this will cause the wall not to be 100% plumb, and it is a long wall. app 2.7m. I would have to bring the whole wall out by about 6mm to accomodate the error if I were to make the whole area plumb. and much of it is not being tiled.

The only other idea I had was to have the wall plumb at the shower end (which it is) then somehow gradually take the surface out of plumb at the other end to accomodate this problem at the other end

Along this area of the wall the tiles will be up to 1m high. I'm using 200 x 250 ceramics.

The 2nd problem I've got is the back wall, which is pretty much fully tiled.

Now, I set out to line the centreline of the floor out with that for the wall. The floor tiles are 300 wide, the wall tiles are 200 wide, and the back wall is at an angle, ie not perpendicular to the side walls. Thus only one line will ever line up. I chose the centre lines. Great idea, but that has left me with 1 inch tile slithers going up each side. Having read Kate's thread about slithers I'm worried about the eventual look now. The wall is symmetrical though.

I'm wondering if I should have centred a tile up the centre rather than a grout line.

The tiles are 'bumpy white' The grout will also be white.

The third problem is with the towel rail. I don't think this is a major one. I have fitted loads of towel rails onto tiled walls, or walls that are to be tiled. There was confusion over whether the wall that the towel rail is fitted to was or was not to be tiled. I fitted the towel rail and ran the plumbing up to it from the floor with it fixed directly to the wall. Unfortunately this wall is now to be tiled.

I have given this a lot of thought and the only way I can see me correcting this is to trim the brackets for the towel rail. They are the telescopic brackets where the insert (fixed to the towel rail) locates into the sleeve - all ladder towel rails of this type use them. I have considered carefully trimming back the outer sleeve to shorten it and allowing the inner sleeve to sit back further. The holes for the locating screws could be redrilled. Again we're talking about 7mm or so.

If you've got to the end of this post, thank you for taking the time to read it.

Knowing what a helpful bunch you all are in lending a hand to people who are honest and want to get it right I hope that you may be able to help here.

Thanks

[hillhead]

too late for this,lol.

[Alan.P]

Sorry CC, a bit late and too tired to get my head around the wall issue, sounds like you realise the mistake with the setting out, what to do next is down to you and or the client, as for the towel rail, cutting the brackets down could work, or maybe you can buy smaller brackets ?

[cornish_crofter]

too late for this,lol.

Do you mean too late for me to do anything or to late in the evening for you to answer it? Please tell me it's the latter

[cornish_crofter]

Sorry CC, a bit late and too tired to get my head around the wall issue, sounds like you realise the mistake with the setting out, what to do next is down to you and or the client, as for the towel rail, cutting the brackets down could work, or maybe you can buy smaller brackets ?

With regards to the setting out, I don't think the client would be too bothered. I usually consult the client about this as to be quite frank I think I lack the ability to make the right decision in this area. I don't see asthetics as other people do. However this particular client really does not want to be bothered about little details like this. So I simply went for the obvious option of lining up the centre grout line.

The brackets. I wouldn't know where to get shorter brackets from. These are the cheap B and Q towel rails you get, and this one comes with 3 bracket.

....unless you know of where I can find replacement brackets etc.

[Alan.P]

I think it's the latter ????

[doug boardley]

I must admit, it's too late in the evening (wine has been taken) to fully absorb your thread Hugo, I will however read it in the morning.

[Alan.P]

Have you got any play in the pipes to alow it to come off the wall by the distance needed, after all, it's not a great distance ?

[Scott]

Its the latter!

You can trim the brackets i have done it before, other wise there are 'dog legged' ra valves that will kick the rad off the wall a touch, about 10mm can be achieved with them. It just depends on what style they have?

Regarding the setting out, did you not look at the way the tiles would run into the corners? The 1" cut doesnt sound brilliant but it isnt as bad as kates as that really was a slither, 5mm ish. You 'll learn from it if nothing else

[cornish_crofter]

The pipes come straight out of the screeded floor. I laid all the pipes up and soldered them into position with the towel rail fixed to the wall. There is absolutely no play in them unfortunately.

Scott, if you've trimmed the brackets in the past then I think I will do just that. Most of the cut face will be hidden by the other part anyway. The only skill is getting a square cut and I suspect if I carefully rig up a block on the workmate it is achievable.

Having said that I'll have a look at these dog legged rad valves as well.

With regards to the 1 inch cut. I did set the bottom row out, but to be honest it didn't occurr to me about the cuts being narrow even though I knew they would be. I was totally fixated on lining up the grout lines and I had initially considered them to be an inevitable consequence. I saw Kate's and that was bad, even I spotted that. To be honest I'm not totally happy with this wall. The tiles are OK in terms of level etc but I am not totally happy with it. I was basically supplied rapid set adhesive by mistake. Long story but suffice to say it didn't give me the time I needed to get the tiles perfect. You can't see it from standing back but the level tells you they do vary by 1mm in places. Mind you some of the tiles (cheap) bow by this amount as well.

This is particularly annoying as I have done better than this in the past. I'm coming to the conclusion that I let the customer force me into a corner with wanting it done quickly and trying to make up the time lost due to the weather etc has taken its toll.

I will certainly learn from this. There is no doubt.

So far I have a solution for the towel rail, and a view on the setting out of the back wall, which I suspect the customer will not have an issue with. Now it's just the back wall.

The job so far isn't terrible, it's just not as good as I would like.

[peckers]

that was some read at this time in the morning 1.00 am.and full off fosters lol. could you not flush the wall out with adhesive at the bottom just above where it starts to kick out upto about 4ft high it wouldnt be as noticible then with the smallish size tiles you are using? you could lay up the addy and staff it off to suit.
as for the towel rad cant help there as i dont fitt them. and as for the small cuts at the edge its too late now you will either have to live with it and put it down to experience or remove it and start again.

[cornish_crofter]

Thanks all.

I think that I will

1) Leave the tiles on the end wall. I'll have a look at them before I know for certain. TBH I don't think the customer is particluarly bothered one way or the other. Certainly I will need to centre the tiles around the shower mixer on that wall, or at least have a good look at this area, bearing in mind I think I have a chromisone missing and I have absolutely no asthetic appreciation :LOL:

2) Do as Steve suggests and flush out the wall with adhesive up to a metre, which is where the tiles will go up to on this area. This is the area I was having most of a problem with thinking through and it's where other people's experience comes in to help me.

3) Towel rail. I've had a look at the one in our bathroom this morning. The brackets are the same, and I think they will cut down OK to allow the towel rail to sit a bit closer to the wall.

On the other side of the bathroom, there are pipes going to the rad, which are too close to the wall to tile behind, it was virtually impossible to do these any other way (long story). These are just going to be tiled up to either side and boxed in. The boxing in will be tiled althought it will sit behind the pedistal. The centreline of the tiles on this wall has been lined up with the position of the basin, so the boxing in will work asthetically, being central etc. That I could think through myself.

I can't thank you enough for your help guys. Steve, if you need any small plumbing doing, I'm not far from you

Please keep the comments coming!

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

any pic's???

[kilty55]

for your kick out wall cornish pack out your upper tiles with a suitable addy to accomodate the 6mm difference

[cornish_crofter]

for your kick out wall cornish pack out your upper tiles with a suitable addy to accomodate the 6mm difference

That was one option I had considered. The idea of using some Rapid set SPF to flush out the kick out apealed to me as then I could move onto it and simply tile as if I were tiling wedi board etc, which would speed the job up.

I find it slow going to lay adhesive to a level over dips using a trowel. I find the teeth of the trowel need to be in gentle contact with something hard and level to give me the best chance.

Mind you, the right adhesive will help! :LOL:

[micko]

With the towel rail if the brackets are round run some insulation tape around them where you plan to cut. This will give you a line to follow, if you just go at it with a hacksaw it will end up all over the place.

[cornish_crofter]

I usually either do this or run an adjustable pipe cutter around any round items to be cut. If the pipe cutter can't cut it then it should at least give me a line to cut to.

[micko]

Rather than bring the wall out with adhesive could you not do it with plaster bonding , a much more cost effective method.

[doug boardley]

Rather than bring the wall out with adhesive could you not do it with plaster bonding , a much more cost effective method.

but not a suitable substrate to tile onto....

[cornish_crofter]

Rather than bring the wall out with adhesive could you not do it with plaster bonding , a much more cost effective method.

Thanks, that had crossed my mind, though I've already got the adhesive. It is the rapid set I bought in error and the bag has just been opened, so I was going to use that. I doubt I'll have a chance to use it before it goes off.

And as Doug says, it's not the best to tile onto.

[whitebeam]

Rather than bring the wall out with adhesive could you not do it with plaster bonding , a much more cost effective method.

Concidering bonding has become finer, some plasterers claim it feels like it's mixed with browning as well, not for tiling on.

[micko]

but not a suitable substrate to tile onto....

Just a thought, I’m not a tiler as you can probably guess

[TrustNige]

hi cornish
Had the same problem before Christmas and I know this sounds mad but I simply cut the tiles with a diamond grinder bit from 365. Looked spot on!
Nige

[andy8758]

Cornish crofter - this thread is now 3 weeks old - so hopefully you have solved the problem, and started a less frustrating job!! However, I had 2 thoughts when reading this litany of woe:

1 - You had a 6mm run out at the bottom - perfect for 6mm tile backer board screwed and rawlplugged - you could probably even manage a 1mm adhesive bed for it too. Ultimately this would give you a more accurate wall than trying to render it with addy.

2 - I find nearly every job I take on provides a new challenge to work around. The trick is to recognise the challenge first, look at the options to overcome, then crack on with the job. Course thats easy to say sat at a computer desk, but I work on the basis that folks dont hire a tiler if it is an easy tiling job!

So let us know how it turned out - I remember reading a thread from you before Xmas about giving up tiling - if you were viewing the trade from a problem job then it always seems depressing. I pohotograph all my completed work. When I am facing probglems, I just review the beautiful work I have previously done, it inspires me to have another crack at the problem and attack it from a different angle.

[cornish_crofter]

Thanks Andy

Yes, this job is now finished. I got round 2 of the problems and compromised on the third - the 1 inch strips of tiles.

In the end, after I had levelled out the RHS wall after tiling the back wall I found that the tiles on the RHS of the back wall butted up quite neatly into the corner. That left the strip of tiles to the left, which the customer really wasn't bothered about. In actual fact the LHS of the wall is boxed out by about 100mm plus and it looks like the tiles are centralised to the room, but not the back wall, if that makes sense. So, asthetically it isn't so bad as it could be.

With regard to the 6mm kick out at the bottom. The hardibacker idea is a very good one, and I had used exactly that approach in another corner where I was going onto studwork (side of the 100mm boxing in). I used strips of 6mm hardibacker screwed in - I had them left over from another job, and filled in any gaps with tile adhesive. What made it easier here was that I was tiling all the way to the ceiling. On the wall in question I was only tiling half way up. But I filled and levelled it with rapid set and it worked a treat. I got it pretty level, which made the tiling a lot easier.

Thirdly, the towel rail. That was an absolute doddle!

The approach was to position the towel rail vertical and measure to the wall. The wall in question sloped out a bit (but on the flat) so I measured and cut the brackets using an adjustable pipeslice. I then redrilled the screw holes through both the outer and inner sleeve after having set them in position. It was almost as quick as fitting it normally. In time I'll post some pictures of how I did it on the open forum.

Thanks again for all your input guys.

[Alberta Stone]

So I am not sure I understand fully why the bottom of the wall had the kerdi tape in the first place.???
Was the wall getting kerdi also?
or was it just to provide a waterproofing at the bottom?

[cornish_crofter]

So I am not sure I understand fully why the bottom of the wall had the kerdi tape in the first place.???
Was the wall getting kerdi also?
or was it just to provide a waterproofing at the bottom?

Because there is ditra matt on the floor and the kerdi tape was being used to prevent standing water getting into the wall. The old woden floor had been removed and there were holes in the wall where the joists had been, plus others for one reason or another at floor level. The areas that needed to be tanked were treated with Weber tanking kit - paint on. The main problem, hence the kerdi tape was only applied to the corners.

[Alberta Stone]

I would think that the kerdi tape could be cut flush with the tops of the installed floor tiles and the thinset and whatever be rasped back to rid the 6mm kick out problem and then you could paint on a liquid waterproofing like Mapei HPG on the lower wall to provide insurance against leakage, which, since it is merely a standard wall, is going to be minimal and even a proper silicone joint would be as effective as the kerdi to keep any occasional water from mopping or whatever from getting behind the tile or into the wall/floor.
If it was going to be a highly wet area then it would be critical, but it isn't, so it is a bit much, which posed an extra problem as a result.
You will certainly spot that kind of issue in the future before the floor tile are finished, that is for sure.

[Alberta Stone]

I would think that the kerdi tape could be cut flush with the tops of the installed floor tiles and the thinset and whatever be rasped back to rid the 6mm kick out problem and then you could paint on a liquid waterproofing like Mapei HPG on the lower wall to provide insurance against leakage, which, since it is merely a standard wall, is going to be minimal and even a proper silicone joint would be as effective as the kerdi to keep any occasional water from mopping or whatever from getting behind the tile or into the wall/floor.
If it was going to be a highly wet area then it would be critical, but it isn't, so it is a bit much, which posed an extra problem as a result.
You will certainly spot that kind of issue in the future before the floor tile are finished, that is for sure.

[cornish_crofter]

It's all done now, but that is something to think about.

The only problem with the silicone joints is that in this respect I didn't want them to be the only defence against ingress. The reason is because the condensation in the room when I was doing them was absolutely unbelievable. I was dabbing paper towel into the 2mm gaps I'd left to try and dry it out and if I then left it for more than a few minutes before applying the silicone, it just wouldn't take as the moisture from above and around had got back in there. Hence if there were small areas of the od couple ofmm or so where the silicone hadn't fully bonded then it shouldn't be an issue either asthetically or functionally.