Stone Does Not Work

[Dave]

PETER HARRISON, Deputy Chairman, Stone Federation of Great Britain Technical Committee says, "I am frequently called as an "expert witness" in cases where stone installations have failed. The main cause of these failures is a lack of knowledge by the fitters."

This, in turn, is caused by lack of training and a failure to follow British Standards requirements, and Stone Federation of Great Britain guidelines. But we're now taking massive steps to change that by introducing the first NVQs for stone flooring installers.
Approximately 70 per cent of the domestic stone industry is made up of ceramic, porcelain and terrazzo fitters who have moved into the market thinking stone can be installed in the same way. And there is a very high chance that installers who are not trained in laying stone are going to end up with failures.
In the past a lot of stone was very hard marble or granite, which was relatively forgiving to movement stresses. Nowadays the trend is towards white limestone, in particular 600mm x 600mm x 10mm. These Johnny-come-lately fitters don't understand the characteristics of this thinner, more vulnerable stone. They don't understand how it performs, that it'll crack easily if the screed moves.
Because of the number of failures installers frequently say: "I'm not going to use stone - it doesn't work." Stone DOES work, and works very well. It gives a long-lasting, quality finish. But it must be fitted by trained installers, the design must be right, the stone used must be suitable for the application, movement joints must be used to compensate for surface movement, and uncoupling membranes are needed to prevent shear stresses being transferred from the substrate to the surface.
Very often the floor has cracked or debonded because installers have not fitted an uncoupling membrane or enough movement joints. The lack of movement joints often arises where the end-user customer doesn't want them because of the aesthetics of the installation. The installer should be alerting the customer to what will happen without them - but they're not doing, probably because they don't know themselves. And, of course, if laid properly, and sympathetically with the design, movement joints often improve the look of the finished floor, rather than detracting from it.
To overcome these problems the Stone Federation is working closely with the CITB who are currently funding a training officer for the stone industry. Our training group is hard at work drafting NVQs up to level two in stone flooring installation. We're aiming to see the first fixers starting to study for this new qualification by the end of the year.

Also the Stone Federation is publishing a new code of practice bringing together all the stone flooring elements of the different British Standards, including the use of uncoupling membranes, the maximum size of floors before intermediate movement joints should be incorporated, and the use of perimeter movement joints.
By setting up the industry's first NVQs I hope we can raise the profile of the Stone Federation so that more companies will join, and end-user customers will only want to use Federation members or companies who have staff with NVQ qualifications.
Also, installers, architects and specifiers should familiarise themselves with the new Code of Practice, and should warn customers of anything that falls outside the requirements. We don't want to stifle innovation, but we don't want untrained installers continuing to say they're not going to use stone again because it's such a bad product. If stone is laid properly, it will last for years - but it can only be laid properly by knowledgeable installers.
As a third step towards improving knowledge of how to guarantee the long-lasting integrity of stone floors, the Stone Federation has recently welcomed world market leader in tiling solutions, Schlüter-Systems, to its membership. Schlüter's Public Relations Manager Stewart Bint is now on the Training Group, and Technical Manager Ian Knifton sits on our Technical Committee.
Ian Knifton says: "Movement joints create independent tile fields, absorbing much of the surface movement. Without them the shear stress builds up between the surface and the screed, causing debonding and cracking. Therefore, stress-relieving joints are an essential part of any stone installation, and should be incorporated at the design stage. And an uncoupling membrane installed over the substrate, with the stone anchored to the top of it, will neutralise movement and cracks in the screed, preventing any stresses being transferred from the screed to the stone covering."
And Stewart Bint's PR and communications expertise is being offered as a free service to companies working on stone flooring projects. "While Schlüter primarily protects the long-term integrity of tiled installations through movement joints, uncoupling and waterproofing membranes, we feel it's important to help companies increase overall stone awareness amongst their target audiences.
"Judging by the number of cases where Schlüter is called in to trouble-shoot where stone installations have gone wrong, we're pleased to be able to play a part in educating stone flooring contractors, architects and specifiers, in the correct use of essential protection."
For more information contact:
Stewart Bint
T: 01530 813396
F: 01530 813376

[Dave]

Here is the link to the stone federation of great britian ......:thumbsuu:

http://www.stone-federationgb.org.uk/

[dptiling]

firstly im all for training .
iam also in favor of more regulation regarding fixing.
but unless it becomes complusery for tilers to have nvq to work, i just think its another course to have to attend.
to me it seems all trades men need to do is a course and that makes them qualyfied.
i think the training should be longer and more indepth.
a few days or weeks is just not long enough.

what i do think is if the courses were longer the price increases would detere
people.
which here in makes my point.
are there to many short courses. and are the people who run the courses the main people who benifit.

[LOFTHOUSE]

Amen! Stone Pro, that's the Mentality we need, and why lose the bid/contract. Self-Education is a "Would be StoneSetters" most practical approach.

I would encourage anyone who shys away from Natural Stone, to just realize......

This is not synthetic material, it is shaped by forces of nature. Truly Magnificent!

The literature is available, read it please.

Just a few extra steps and you're well on your way mates.

Remember, the power is in the Word....."I can do this"

Amen.

Randy Lofthouse

[MICK the Tiler]

If I can't get my price for fixing stone I simply don't do the job, there's other work I can do quicker than stone, but in saying that ,clients simply don't know how much time and effort goes into stonework and it needs to be paid for, you simply can't slap stone down for 30 bucks a meter if you do you are only inviting trouble.

Regulation would be a good starting point I think, were I live we have always had strong regulation, it aint perfect, but it works quite well I think and gives the customer some protection against sub- standard workmanship.

[wetdec]

Approximately 70 per cent of the domestic stone industry is made up of ceramic, porcelain and terrazzo fitters who have moved into the market thinking stone can be installed in the same way. And there is a very high chance that installers who are not trained in laying stone are going to end up with failures.

A very brave statement but so very very true and about time someone said it as its all going to sh*t and no one will wake up to it. The stone industry is making millions how much grout remover do they sell because tile fixers think they are stone fixers.

Brickeys dont build stone walls and plasterers dont dont artex but hey ho tilers can fix stone............doesnt make sense.

If you are a stone fixer then top marks to you for learning your trade, if you are a tiler then stick to your trade or get taught. I know there is a shortage of stone fixers and the money is attractive but just reading the forum you can see the money has to be earned.

Imo.........

Tiler



.

[enduro]

The trouble is there is not many places offering training i put a link up yesterday www.stone-federationgb.org.uk and they have sent me details. I seem to be fixing stone more and more at the moment, in the last six weeks i have fixed 180sqm of natural stone on different jobs. I would like to just specialise in stone as i find it beautiful to work with, but the next biggest problem i come up against is people think once its fixed that's it, but it needs maintenance, cleaning properly and sealing etc. So with a lot of advice from Kev, tilinglogisics im offering this service as well. There is a company close to me who all the sell is natural stone flooring, they have been to look at a couple of my jobs that i have fixed for there customers and they were impressed so hope this will bring me lots more work.

[Rad2474]

An interesting read,i only tile part-time my main job is a cnc operator. I don't do stone as i can't never had the training and i wouldn't pretend to a customer that i could, i take pride in being able to be able to do what i say i can do. I would love to further my skills in a area like this but because i work our government makes sure i can't afford to learn.It really p****** me off that i can't do better for myself because i go out to work.

[deanotile]

I think the idea of the qualifications are in theory a very good thing but unfortunately in practise do not give the assurances of workmanship that they should.
Lets take the NVQ level 2 in wall and floor tiling. For a start where is level 1? There is not one, so in effect there is nothing to distinguish the tilers that have been in the job for some years and those that have just began there carer as a tiler. If you hold an NVQ2 you are classed as competent in your trade. But there is a world of difference between having a basic understanding of and being competent in the trade. Over the years I have seen enough goings on to now that a portfolio based qualification is insufficient to declare competence. In my opinion the system is flawed. I have had a look at a draft for the new diploma and have to say it’s not bad. It will be interesting to see the criteria for competency in stone fitting and also if it is written by a stone fitter, as most of the criteria for tiling has been written by carpenters and plasterers.

[LOFTHOUSE]

LOFTHOUSE STONE That is the full name of my business, and Tile & Stone Distributors ask why I didn't choose "Tile & Stone".

I got involved as a Stonesetter/Installer, via a Mexican/American Importer. The stone he imports is high caliber, the most gorgeous, however, each stone has it's unique characteristics, some of which can render it most vulnerable to stains & fracture.

"Think Like a Stone" If I'm brittle, and porous, therefore absorbing moisture like a sponge or terra-cotta......obviously I'm going to need sealers, the petro-based variety. Yes, the molucules of water-based sealers are not small enough vehicles to penetrate some stone entirely. (so you just seal & seal, never quite enough eh) I recommend Miracle Brand Sealers, or anything from StoneTECH, even a company AQUAMIX makes a variety of Solutions for Stone Finishing.

Never Fear Any Stone, even Marble with Heavy Veining. The Quartz is like a Faultline, take care....tread lightly on the wetsaw. You'll need a superior grade blade for cutting most dense stone, to avoid excess friction and inhibit chipping along the cut.

Also, mix the stone, as when it is delivered in the crate/pallet. Yes, it's like a deck of cards, you've got to sort through this mass of product and categorize. Never begin setting immediately. It might take an entire day to layout a designer mix of "Calico Variation" if the tones and activity of each StoneTile is that radical.

I must say, my weakest area has been in dealing with an unlevel concrete surface. I just despise having to grind down high spots, due to the dust creation. In an occupied residence, this involves Dust Containment precautions. I am responsible for any damages, and may not collect my last payment until everything is restored to absolute cleanliness. So, Mates & Lasses......I am going to attend a workshop (not sure where yet) on floating floors, filling lowspots, screeding, etc. And, QEP.com has a new LASH Spacer, which they say can help "Level, Align, Space, & Hold".......I have yet to use it, as they are not readily available to me, unless I order them online.

Please let me know any of your tips, etc.

I welcome your comments & suggestions.

Respectfully Yours,

Randy J. Lofthouse
owner/sales-design-installation

LOFTHOUSE STONE
"Kitchen & Bath, Tile & Stone"

[LM Ceramics]

a very interesting thread im keen to expand my knoweldge further if i can i think it would be a good idea to have a qualification in stone work ive ben tiling for 4 years now most of the time house bashing but i have been shown how to lay natural stone but i would be keen to learn alot more

im going to do my nvq next year in tiling i dont need it as i do alot of domestic work but i want to do it as a self achievment. the thing that would probably put people of the stone course is more money to fork out, personally i would be up for it.

[wetdec]

Hey people dont loose sight of the fact that an NVQ doesnt mean your a stone fixer it means you completed and passed a course, now if you add that piece of paper to 3 years laying stone your about half way there.....imo


16yrs ago this year i started laying stone, 6 yrs ago i laid 150m2 white limestone (thats around 8 crates 60x40 3/4 inch thick me & 1 lab) in a london showroom. The floors ran from 3inch to nothing it went down dried then i sealed it, as i left through the door 3 tiles hadnt taken the sealer. The next day I cut them out and 10yrs laying stone didnt mean sh*t.

Stone comes out of the ground not a factory and she owns you dont ever doubt that..............


tiler


..