Stone Does Not Work

[Dave]

check out this as well..it will help you know more about certain stones....there site is very informative......

Stone Federation GB

these guys make me laff
they cut 600 x 600 into 10mm thick to conform to the domestic market
then blame the tilers because it cracks

[Highlander]

I have to laugh at a lot of these posts.

I have been laying stone since I was in school part of life where I come from. I have worked with it before all the fancy sealers came out and remember, the romans did a no bad job before all these associations came about. We used to use burnt linseed oil to seal the stone in fact is is still used by some of the old timers.

The main problem with stone is that people dont understand the product that they are working with. There have been comments by some people tilers stick to tiling my **** you will then need to get the tile shops to stop selling natural stone products to customers duuhhh dont think that will happen. There are tilers that cannot lay bloody porcelain without pannicking.

There is no secret science to laying stone just research the product test it before you seal it. As for NVQs dont get me started who decided on NVQs was it the fixers themselves or some bunch of suits in the manufacturing industry trying to lay the standards down. I would like to see some of those put 1200x400 tiles on a wall. There are to many manufactors putting products out bigger heavier with no proper spec sheets and then they expect tilers to just throw them up and if something goes wrong the poor tilers gets blamed as the cowboy.

I dont have the time to be chasing around NVQs to be assesed by some failed tiler that can read a book. I know one guy that could not put a tile on the wall straight and then he got his NVQ and then became an assesor which shows me what a screwed up system it is.

Just my late night rant.

Highlander

[wetdec]

Originally Posted by pjtiler

these guys make me laff
they cut 600 x 600 into 10mm thick to conform to the domestic market
then blame the tilers because it cracks

The only stone thats safe for wood floors at 10mm is granite or really good quality trav limestone is too soft and marble is being resined to give it stregnth.

Any wood floor should be done in a 15mm trav if you can get it but that takes you to 457's or 60/40.

If you fix like I do where i set the tile then pop it to check the bed 10mm is a joke as it splits because of the weak points in the stones.

The biggest problem is people want it done as cheap as possible and as a result travertine has become the new slate and boy do you pay for what you get,

This is where it all comes unstuck.....if it were tilers + good stone then there would be hope BUT tilers + crap cheap stones is asking for trouble,

The problem is we are now at about year 10 of travertine being popular. The best time to learn was from around year 6 so you will of experienced the drops in quality and learned as you went. Slate is similar every china man with a shovel is mining slate in his garden to sell to the uk who dont know the crap from the good stuff.

My advice learn about limestone and granite thats where the strengths will be but do it now, we have a good way to go yet as we are just at the honed stone stage in the uk, remember polished stone is yet to come.

No dont go buy a bl**dy machine just pick up every sample you can get hold of and learn about them.............u will be surprised at how many different limestones there arn't


tiler


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[deanotile]

Originally Posted by wetdec

Hey people dont loose sight of the fact that an NVQ doesnt mean your a stone fixer it means you completed and passed a course, now if you add that piece of paper to 3 years laying stone your about half way there.....imo


16yrs ago this year i started laying stone, 6 yrs ago i laid 150m2 white limestone (thats around 8 crates 60x40 3/4 inch thick me & 1 lab) in a london showroom. The floors ran from 3inch to nothing it went down dried then i sealed it, as i left through the door 3 tiles hadnt taken the sealer. The next day I cut them out and 10yrs laying stone didnt mean sh*t.

Stone comes out of the ground not a factory and she owns you dont ever doubt that..............


tiler


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Actually the NVQ is supposed to say exactly that. It is supposed to indicate that the holder of the NVQ is a competent and qualified tradesman. But the harsh reality is often the holder of an NVQ has just paid a lot of money (or rather the government has) to be spoon-fed how to build a portfolio. The interference of out side organisations, the fast track NVQ in 60 seconds and the demand for a 90 percent pass rate is all serving to diminish the importance of the qualification. If you have a qualification that can show your level of skill then that may be better than one size fits all. To a lot of people in the trade NVQ just means Not Very Qualified. It is an attitude that will only change when the people who hold the qualifications can actually do what it claims they can do. The current system of linking the NVQ to the CSCS card is making people want an NVQ but not because the qualification is worth having but because they cannot go on site without one. From what I can gather the Australian qualification is actually worth the paper that it’s written on. So it can be don.
Lets hope they do it for the stone fixers.

[garythetiler]

there is loads of confusing rubbish been posted on this subject, part of the wall and floor tiling nvq level 3 is installation of stone surfaces,old timers were taught faience work and slabbing ,tilers make excellent stone fixers, the guy who taught me stone work was an excellent tiler, one of the best i ever worked with,i hadnt seen him for 10 years when i bumped into him last year he was restoring a gothic arched window in a church he is mostly self taught and did the rounds with alot of the stone firms
there are 2 schools of stone fixers traditional fixers who mainly do marble interiors flooring , wall linings and stair cases and kitchen work tops then you have the cladding boys who do facades and rain screens and precast work and mason paving.

[wetdec]

Originally Posted by garythetiler

there is loads of confusing rubbish been posted on this subject, part of the wall and floor tiling nvq level 3 is installation of stone surfaces,old timers were taught faience work and slabbing ,tilers make excellent stone fixers, the guy who taught me stone work was an excellent tiler, one of the best i ever worked with,i hadnt seen him for 10 years when i bumped into him last year he was restoring a gothic arched window in a church he is mostly self taught and did the rounds with alot of the stone firms
there are 2 schools of stone fixers traditional fixers who mainly do marble interiors flooring , wall linings and stair cases and kitchen work tops then you have the cladding boys who do facades and rain screens and precast work and mason paving.

But isnt that exactly it a mason is to stone what a joiner is to wood and a stone fixer is to stone what a chippy is to wood. There is a large margin between them.

I personally am not disputing any tilers ability to become a stone fixer just that it takes learning, experience and want not mearly a piece of paper.


tiler


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[garythetiler]

Originally Posted by wetdec

But isnt that exactly it a mason is to stone what a joiner is to wood and a stone fixer is to stone what a chippy is to wood. There is a large margin between them.

I personally am not disputing any tilers ability to become a stone fixer just that it takes learning, experience and want not mearly a piece of paper.


tiler


//

lets bring back a 5 year apprenticeship in all trades as we are becoming a laughing stock ,we seem to be dumbing down all qualifications from gcse to nvq through to Hnd and A levels i dont understand why .
we should look to the way the german tile industry is run proper apprenticeships ,master level tilers and tarif books, at the moment we have the incredible system were an 8 day course man can advertise that they are specialists in all forms of tiling ,get work and con people into paying for their on site training, taking 5 days to tile a small bathroom ,unbelievable !

[graham31]

Originally Posted by deanotile

Actually the NVQ is supposed to say exactly that. It is supposed to indicate that the holder of the NVQ is a competent and qualified tradesman. But the harsh reality is often the holder of an NVQ has just paid a lot of money (or rather the government has) to be spoon-fed how to build a portfolio. The interference of out side organisations, the fast track NVQ in 60 seconds and the demand for a 90 percent pass rate is all serving to diminish the importance of the qualification. If you have a qualification that can show your level of skill then that may be better than one size fits all. To a lot of people in the trade NVQ just means Not Very Qualified. It is an attitude that will only change when the people who hold the qualifications can actually do what it claims they can do. The current system of linking the NVQ to the CSCS card is making people want an NVQ but not because the qualification is worth having but because they cannot go on site without one. From what I can gather the Australian qualification is actually worth the paper that it’s written on. So it can be don.
Lets hope they do it for the stone fixers.

I read with interest all the comments about NVQs.In my old trade as a panel Beater(you may wonder why i'm reading about tiling)we would get shown all of 15minutes on how to use the most up to date welding equipment,then get issued with a certificate to say we could work it and weld with competence.Now if these welds fail we are held responsible i mean we could be talking about life or death.

My point being it is a bit of paper that means nothing if you really don't know what your doing weather it be welding or tiling.Just because you have a bit of paper saying you have a NVQ level3 doesn't mean you are any better than someone who doesn't.Just means you have bother to get off your ass and spend money getting a NVQ.

DOESN'T mean it will make the trade anymore skilled.The skill is laying the stone/tile it's self.Prob anyone could get an NVQ if they have done tiling for 5years and can be bothered.

[deanotile]

Having a certificate to say you have resaved training in the use of a certain machine is not the same as a qualification in the trade. I think this is where it is all going wrong these qualifications are being handed out to all and sundry which leaves them with no credibility. For a qualification to mean something you should have to earn it.

If you have been trained in stone work and you are seeking employment it is a good thing to have a piece of paper documenting the type of work you are capable of doing but the piece of paper must have integrity and not just have been handed out for turning up on a course.

[whitebeam]

I use do work for a builder doing his plastering his son was an advanced bricklayer, The full city and guilds college and everything. I refused to work for him at the end the bricklaying was absolute dire, Some can some can't with whatever training they get.

[wetdec]

bring back a 5 year apprenticeship in all trades

Its the way.................



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