Big format quartz tiles - help needed

[Iwona]

I know it's long but please could anyone advise?
I'm currently experiencing
a problem with my floor in the hallway area that was tiled approx. 8 months
ago.
In Dec last year I bought a brand new apartment. It did not have flooring
fitted by the building company. At the time of completion it only had
soundproofing system (chipboad and layer of foam) fitted directly on
concrete. Three weeks after completion, the apartment suffered from a
serious water leak due to incorrect instalation of boiler. Water got into
all rooms apart from kitchen and living room as well as to the rest of the
building. The building company came back to repair the damage. Two dehumidifiers were put
in for two weeks. The chipboard from the subfloor was only partially
replaced. As the whole sub-floor construction got uneven due
to patchy replacement, the builders screwed the newly installed chipboard
down to concrete in places. I was assured that the problem was resolved and
could carry on with my home projects. As a precoution I still waited over a
month to let the subfloor to rest before I hired a tiler to fit quartz
tiles in the hallway and kitchen. He continued screwing the chipboard down
to even the preassure - note the builders screwed it down in random places.
Then he primed the subfoor, used a self-leveling compound on top of it and
proceeded with layer of adhesive to glue the tiles. The same techinque was
used in kitched that has not been affected by the leak in any way and in the
hallway that unfortunatley suffered from the leak most.
Now 8 months later the floor in the hallway is a nightmare. It's very
uneven, some tiles are debonded, loose and move, grout cracked in all
joints, whilst the kitchen is as perfect as it was at the begining - nice,
even,etc - could not complain. When I got back to the builders saying that
the water damage few months ago causes me further problems, they concluded
that the fault is with the tiler as he had not used a ditra mat or plastic
ply. On the other hand the tiler claims, that the fault must with the
building company as they had not used a waterproof membrane on concrete
before applying the chipboard. He also points out that the technique should
not be challenged since the same one was used in the kitchen and worked
perfectly.
Please could you advise if Ditra mat or plastic ply used on top of the
chipboard would prevent the damage?

I would grately appreciate your advice.I've got some pics so can post it if you need to get a clearer idea.

[Stewart]

They're both wrong........ Firstly, it sounds like you have a floating floor, which should probably have not been tiled onto. secondly, your tiler hasn't prepped the floor properly.

Floating floors are notoriously difficult to tile, as there is far too much movement in the floor, and therefore, is too unstable to tile. A properly constructed floor finished with 22mm chipboard can be tiled, but must have as a minimum, 6mm Hardie backer board glued and screwed or 15mm exterior grade ply screwed to the chipboard and joist's, with a finished result of zero deflection in the floor. Only then is it suitable to tile over. Your builder has suggested Ditra matting or Plastic Ply...... Both would have been unsuitable for the floor construction and if it is a floating floor, would have ended up with the same result.

If you could confirm it is a floating floor and a few pics would be great to help further.

[Iwona]

Thank you Stewart for your input. Well, i'm not an expert and only a woman but it seems to be a floating floor. But why the floor in the kitchen is intact and looks stunning? What should be done to prevent the damage that i'm experiencing now?

Below are the pictures done when the builders were replacing the sub-floor.
SV104367.JPGSV104397.JPG

[Iwona]

Perhaps I should also mention that all doors were trimmed down by the flooring guy when he finished tiling but since then the floor level has risen significantly which does not let me to fully open doors to several rooms - this could suggest that there's some swelling going on - as it cannot be tiles, I guess it's that chipborad underneath.

[Stewart]

The tiles in your kitchen will eventually fail and the fact they haven't failed yet is a miracle. There isn't anything that I know of that can remedy this.

I would recommend a complete re-fit, from the pictures you have supplied and a discussion with your tiler, who should have recommended a completely different approach to tiling your floor and should accept responsibility for an incorrect installation.

[Iwona]

So please, could you tell what would be a correct approach and installation in this particular case?

[Iwona]

If i need to blame the tiler, how can I make him to accept the responsibility for it? He says that it's not his fault and that's it! He says that the floor in the kitchen is fine which according to him - the installation is fine too. he claims that the builders should apply DPM on top of the concrete as the moisture could trapped there, and then the chipboard. Another factor that he names is the fact that only patches of the chipboard were replaced - not the whole lot.
The builders claim that's the tiler's fault and have nothing more to say in this matter. So I'm left with this horrible floor (it wasn't cheap!!!) and don't know what to do... I'm not preprared to pay twice for the same thing.

[SandyFloor]

When you say the chipboard was partially replaced, do you mean it was cut out in a manner that has removed the tongue and groove joining the chipboard panels together? I say this because chipboard relies on the tongue and groove for any stability and by cutting panels out you're removing this. As Stewart says above it's not a good idea to tile over a floating floor anyway but if the tongue and groove between the panels is cut through it has no chance.

[Iwona]

Aghrrr... Yes, they used a circular saw to cut out the panels. I remember them glueing the panels together after that but it did not work too well so then moved on screwing them down

[SandyFloor]

That seems to explain it then. Even by screwing them down they definitely wouldn't be stable enough for tiling. Personally I think your tiler was in error in carrying out the work to what, in my mind, was an unstable floor. However he might argue it was the builder's responsibility to replace the flooring as it was previously. Put it this way, I probably wouldn't have tiled it in the first place ( for reasons mentioned above ) and I definitely definitely wouldn't have done it the second time after the chipboard had been cut up.

I also reckon there might be water damage to much of the remaining chipboard. Once it swells due to moisture damage it can also soft be and unstable. Once again I wouldn't have touched it.

[Iwona]

What should I do in this case then? I need to identify at which end a fault is and really appreciate your professional advices. I don't know this business at all and could do nothing without your opinions. Is there anyone else keen on giving a piece of advice? Pleeeeeaaase

[Stewart]

I would say the blame lies with the tiler for incorrect installation of floor tiles. The tiles have failed quicker in the hall due to the serious patching of the chipboard, which made this area even more unstable. The builder in my opinion isn't responsible for prepping the area to be tiled, this lies solely with the tiler. the tilers preparation has been completely inadequate and hasn't met any kind of specification that I'm aware of.

The timber floor should have been removed to allow for the correct preparation of floor. Then you could install a tile backer board (cement or insulation type) To raise the area to the correct height so it marries in with the remaining floors. Then i would instal Ditra matting, then tile. There are a couple of variations on this theme, but the main thing is the floor as it stood, should not have been tiled on and should have been removed.

Of course, this is just my opinion on how I would do the work.........

[deanotile]

sorry to read about your problems it sounds like a nightmare. IMO the builder is at fault fore incorrect installation of the sub-floor. the tiler is a fault for tiling on an unsuitable surface. if it were me i would be getting an independent building surveyor to have a look and then I'd be getting some legal advice.

[Dave]

What should I do in this case then? I need to identify at which end a fault is and really appreciate your professional advices. I don't know this business at all and could do nothing without your opinions. Is there anyone else keen on giving a piece of advice? Pleeeeeaaase

Firstly, Chipboard is NOT stable enough to tile directly too, it is a particle board and this cannot in time hold the tiles in place due to thermal expansion of the subfloor, hence tile can debond and grout crack.

Moisture is a killer with chipboard and especially with the none moisture resistant you installed there, So IMO your tiler should not have tiled directly to it , if he had any doubt about the subfloor then he should not have tiled it.

Do not let him pass the buck.. A tiler should know if the substrate is good enough and not blame the builder for poor prep etc..

[Oli]

Absolutley what Dave said, the builders didnt lay any floor finish, just the boards, the tiler should NOT have tiled over them, he should have told you the correct prep and then done it.

The fact that the tiles have stayed down in the kitchen is more luck that judgement and sighting the fact that 'it must be ok becuase they've stayed down' is ridiculous. Just becuse its wrong but hasnt failed doesnt mean its ok.

[jay]

got to ask why put chipboard over concrete

[Dave]

By the look of it jay it might be sound proofing..

[jay]

looks more like a recipe for disaster to me

[Iwona]

Thanks guys for all your advices. You've left me though wondering when the floor in my kitchen will deteriorate...
Jay, the chipboard and foam (in this case ICO PAL impact 18) was used for its soundproofing qualities - I guess.

[Iwona]

and yes, it has turned out to be a recipe for disaster If I only knew....

[Dave]

You have a tiled installation that has failed due to improper installation techniques.. You should contact your fixer again and try that route..

[Phil Hobson]

Sorry to hear of your problem Iwona, I must agree with all above. Chipboard/ floating floors, bad news. If sound proofing was the objective, there are products out there that reduce sound transmission eg. Dural silent tread, a membrane fixed directly to the concrete. Hope you get sorted with this.

[Iwona]

I'm glad that I've found you here. And trust me, I've spoken to the tiler many times now but all he says is that it's not his fault but the builders'... Moisture, cutting ble ble ble etc Buiders say that they cannot assist on this matter as it's the tiler's fault because he did not use ditra mat or plastic ply - and so on and on. To me it's really painful knowing how much it cost me, how bad it looks in my very first and brand new home, and that no one wants to take responsibility for it - I feel that I'm left with it on my own. Seriously do not know what to do next. I've contacted several local and well established tilers - they all confirm what you've said here - the tiler did not prep the substrate properly...

[Dave]

Then you need to take this further and seek Legal advice.. if the tiler says no, then you have at least given him chance to rectify, now go the legal route.

[Iwona]

His defending line is now that the builders did not apply any DPM. Do you think that DMP would prevent the damage? Is there any gold standard on how apply quartz tiles and how to prep the subfloor? Should the chipboard be removed completely and replaced with other sound proofing product? I feel like I need to explain him in detail what should have been done...

Although I'd hate to go the legal route- I have no nerve to do it, but does anyone know how to do it effectively, where to start?

[Dave]

You need to get an independent report done.. This then can be used in evidence as a remedial to what should have been done.. please do seek legal advice.

[Iwona]

Thanks Dave. Can you suggest who should prepare the report?

[timeless john]

Your tilers argument doesn't stand up - if the house had been built 50 yeas ago and he tiled it the same way would he still be blaming the builder! It's the tilers responsibility to check and prepare the substrate to receive tiles.

[Dave]

This should be a qualified tiler or you can go direct to the TTA.. but it is not cheap but if you win all costs can be recouped... they better the report the easier it is to get a good case.

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