Help!: Getting close to crunch time

[velcro]

naples tile.JPG
Hello all.

When I joined back in January, I explained that I had a self-build project with 150m2 floor tiling ahead of me.

It's now getting close to the point at which I've got to get stuck in.

Firstly, it's unfair to single out individuals from a site so full of great advice, but I've got to say many thanks to both Ajax & sWe in particular for their posts on anhydrite screed & tiling guides respectively.

Having no doubt unwisely upset the rest of you who should also have had plaudits, here's what I plan to do - I'm really looking for any hints & tips to make the project a) easier to complete and b) more likely to deliver something that's going to look good and last (plus any "No! - don't do that!"'s).

It's a long post, so thanks in advance for those with the willpower to get to the end.

The floor tiles I'm laying are Italian porcelaine - Rondine Naples Nola, 45x45 and 34x34. I'll use the large ones for the larger rooms, and the small ones for small rooms & maybe as a visual break between rooms. The rooms vary in size from 20m2 to 40m2 for the larger rooms, and 6 to 9m2 for the small ones. The walls are very thick, so there's a 60 to 90cm long corridor between rooms. I plan to lay the tiles in the large rooms on the diagonal.
The picture is of the smaller tile. You can see the edge is square, but the surface is "chipped". The tiles are much lighter than the photo.

The tiles are to be laid on an anhydrite liquid screed, so the surface should be ultra level. The screed is on top of a wet underfloor heating system which has not yet been commissioned. The plan is that this will be commissioned & gradually brought up to temperature before I start, with it switched off 2 days or so before I start. The edge insulation put down when the UFH was installed is sticking up above the level of the screed, with gaps between it & the stone wall.

Q1 - do I cut the insulation down to the level of the screed, or tile to the insulation (would leave large gaps between tiles & the wall - not very pretty)?

Q2 - any suggestions on what I should use to fill in the gaps between the insulation & the stone wall (up to 5cm wide & perhaps 15cm deep)?

The adhesive proposed by the tile shop is ParexLanko 556 Prolifluide Anhydrite, and according to the technical sheet, I can lay it without priming the screed, using a 20mm half-moon trowel, without needing to back butter the tiles.

I'm thinking of using BAL Superflex Wide Joint grout, limestone or sandstone coloured.

I have a paddle I've used in the past for mixing plaster. It's 10cm diameter on a 60cm shaft. I also have a BAL thick bed solid bed trowel (20mm round notches with a 10mm depth & 28mm centres).

Q3 - bearing in mind that I'm going to be much slower than you guys, and will therefore be mixing smaller quantities of adhesive, will my paddle do, or do I need to buy one of the 20cm paddles from TT?

Q4 - when I use the trowel to spread the adhesive, do I press down to make sure that the edge of the trowel scrapes the screed, and what angle should I hold it at?

I plan to put expansion joints in the doorways - I think I can avoid any in the middle of the rooms. The large rooms are 5m wide, and vary from 4m long to 8m long.

Q5 - should I use silicon for the expansion joints (I was thinking that BAL Microseal Champagne might be a close match) or one of the Schluter expansion joints?

Q6 - is a 3mm grout line OK? (I'm hoping that the "chipped" edge will be forgiving of my lack of experience) - I would rather avoid a wide grout, if I can.

I plan to get the following bits & pieces (courtesy of TT):
Washboy
Nippers
Rubbing block
Circular cutter
Tile pencils
Angle finder
scribe

Q6 - what am I missing? (I've got some Nailers knee pads, so my knees should be OK)

If you got this far, many thanks. I'll be posting another epic shortly on my plans for the wetrooms & walls.

[365drills]

Q6 - what am I missing? (I've got some Nailers knee pads, so my knees should be OK)

kit2.jpg

guideplate3.jpg

[david campbell]

naples tile.JPG
Hello all.

When I joined back in January, I explained that I had a self-build project with 150m2 floor tiling ahead of me.

It's now getting close to the point at which I've got to get stuck in.

Firstly, it's unfair to single out individuals from a site so full of great advice, but I've got to say many thanks to both Ajax & sWe in particular for their posts on anhydrite screed & tiling guides respectively.

Having no doubt unwisely upset the rest of you who should also have had plaudits, here's what I plan to do - I'm really looking for any hints & tips to make the project a) easier to complete and b) more likely to deliver something that's going to look good and last (plus any "No! - don't do that!"'s).

It's a long post, so thanks in advance for those with the willpower to get to the end.

The floor tiles I'm laying are Italian porcelaine - Rondine Naples Nola, 45x45 and 34x34. I'll use the large ones for the larger rooms, and the small ones for small rooms & maybe as a visual break between rooms. The rooms vary in size from 20m2 to 40m2 for the larger rooms, and 6 to 9m2 for the small ones. The walls are very thick, so there's a 60 to 90cm long corridor between rooms. I plan to lay the tiles in the large rooms on the diagonal.
The picture is of the smaller tile. You can see the edge is square, but the surface is "chipped". The tiles are much lighter than the photo.

The tiles are to be laid on an anhydrite liquid screed, so the surface should be ultra level. The screed is on top of a wet underfloor heating system which has not yet been commissioned. The plan is that this will be commissioned & gradually brought up to temperature before I start, with it switched off 2 days or so before I start. The edge insulation put down when the UFH was installed is sticking up above the level of the screed, with gaps between it & the stone wall.

Q1 - do I cut the insulation down to the level of the screed, or tile to the insulation (would leave large gaps between tiles & the wall - not very pretty)?
cut it down
Q2 - any suggestions on what I should use to fill in the gaps between the insulation & the stone wall (up to 5cm wide & perhaps 15cm deep)?
what about ready mixed mortar
The adhesive proposed by the tile shop is ParexLanko 556 Prolifluide Anhydrite, and according to the technical sheet, I can lay it without priming the screed, using a 20mm half-moon trowel, without needing to back butter the tiles.

I'm thinking of using BAL Superflex Wide Joint grout, limestone or sandstone coloured.

I have a paddle I've used in the past for mixing plaster. It's 10cm diameter on a 60cm shaft. I also have a BAL thick bed solid bed trowel (20mm round notches with a 10mm depth & 28mm centres).

Q3 - bearing in mind that I'm going to be much slower than you guys, and will therefore be mixing smaller quantities of adhesive, will my paddle do, or do I need to buy one of the 20cm paddles from TT?
start in a larger room and mix up small amounts this will let you guage what you can work through
Q4 - when I use the trowel to spread the adhesive, do I press down to make sure that the edge of the trowel scrapes the screed, and what angle should I hold it at?
you will naturally feel the angle on which your trowel moves along the screed,just make sure you don't hold it too flat
I plan to put expansion joints in the doorways - I think I can avoid any in the middle of the rooms. The large rooms are 5m wide, and vary from 4m long to 8m long.

Q5 - should I use silicon for the expansion joints (I was thinking that BAL Microseal Champagne might be a close match) or one of the Schluter expansion joints?
personal choice,a lot of people prefer silicone joints to match the grout in homes
Q6 - is a 3mm grout line OK? (I'm hoping that the "chipped" edge will be forgiving of my lack of experience) - I would rather avoid a wide grout, if I can.
3mm will be fine
I plan to get the following bits & pieces (courtesy of TT):
Washboy
Nippers
Rubbing block
Circular cutter
Tile pencils
Angle finder
scribe
manual tile cutter
spirit level
Q6 - what am I missing? (I've got some Nailers knee pads, so my knees should be OK)

If you got this far, many thanks. I'll be posting another epic shortly on my plans for the wetrooms & walls.

good luck

[velcro]

Thanks David.

I've got a big clinker manual cutter, which has worked ok for ceramic tiles. I'm hoping it'll be ok for these porcelain ones (only ever done ceramic in the past), and I've got a Forge Steel level set from Screwfix with 72", 48" & 24" levels. - not the highest quality, but good enough for what I'll be able to achieve, I'm sure.

I'm with you on the "start with small quantities & see what you can do" - will my small plaster paddle be OK ?

Cheers.

[faithhealer]

good answer from David, saved me typing, your paddle will be ok, I use a trowel for small batches sometimes.

[mikethetile]

its about 60 degrees for a trowel to give the correct depth of addy

[david campbell]

Thanks David.

I've got a big clinker manual cutter, which has worked ok for ceramic tiles. I'm hoping it'll be ok for these porcelain ones (only ever done ceramic in the past), and I've got a Forge Steel level set from Screwfix with 72", 48" & 24" levels. - not the highest quality, but good enough for what I'll be able to achieve, I'm sure.

I'm with you on the "start with small quantities & see what you can do" - will my small plaster paddle be OK ?

Cheers.

big clinker will be fine! i've got one and they are outstanding value for money,you might need to tighten the breaker screw if your doing a lot of repetative cuts

[velcro]

Anyone out there tiled up to a stone wall (it's not dressed stone, so it's extremely irregular)?

Any hints & tips?

Would a Marcrist curvy blade (CC750) help? (also need to cut out around a quadrant shower tray).

Cheers.

[Ajax123]

Is this job in France.......just curious as to why a French adhesive. Is it cheaper than/available in the UK?

[GAZCOM]

You are missing a good bottle of scotch, a quiet place to escape to when things look bad and a good holiday when your finished!!!

Good luck, be calm take your time and remember this will be your master piece...

[velcro]

Is this job in France.......just curious as to why a French adhesive. Is it cheaper than/available in the UK?

Yes ... it's in France, on top of a Lafarge screed (Agilia Sols A), and with 150m2 to do, I didn't think that buying the addy here would be a good plan. The price I've been quoted (29.90 EUR for a 25kg bag) didn't seem too bad.

Haven't made up my mind about the grout yet ... with smaller volumes, I could buy it over here, and I've been thinking about BAL Superflex or Superflex Wide.

[velcro]

You are missing a good bottle of scotch, a quiet place to escape to when things look bad and a good holiday when your finished!!!

Good luck, be calm take your time and remember this will be your master piece...

One of the nice things about it being in France is that wine is in abundant supply. It's also in the back of beyond, with no telly or internet, so come the evening, after tools have been downed, there's little to do other than sit in front of the fire with the music in the background, a good book & a bottle of local red.

Re my masterpiece, I sincerely hope so, but time will tell.

[faithhealer]

just a thought, used 'french' mapei before and the weather was cold (for southern france) and setting times were miles slower, so would our addy go off too fast? answers on a postcard please...

[Ajax123]

just a thought, used 'french' mapei before and the weather was cold (for southern france) and setting times were miles slower, so would our addy go off too fast? answers on a postcard please...

Gypsum based adhesive tend to be rapid setting anyway regardless of whether they are French made or UK made. Typical ot life of 40 minutes and you should spread no more than you can lay tiles in about 10 minutes cos it starts to skin on the floor. I know Creative are working on this but it is a time away yet. The French boys do this so much better though cos they are used to using these adhesives.

25 Euros is about the same sort of price as the UK gear (converted) so sounds about right.

one interesting story I had a couple of weeks ago was that a builder had used Gyvlon Screed and then tiled using Gypsum based adhesive but had to remove a couple of tiles to do a repair to a hearth. He said he had a biatch of a job getting the tiles up.......not the issue I usually get complaints about.

[Ajax123]

Velcro - did you source the adhesive yourself or were you given any advice from Lafarge Beton or La Chappe Liquide in making the choice?

[velcro]

just a thought, used 'french' mapei before and the weather was cold (for southern france) and setting times were miles slower, so would our addy go off too fast? answers on a postcard please...

I won't be able to tile until the UFH has been commissioned & brought up to temperature, so I'm not expecting to be able to start until December, when the average day temperature is 9 or 10, dropping to 1 or 2 overnight. In the house, I don't expect it to fall below 6. There'll be little or no heating in the house (I'll have to have the UFH off, and will just have a wood burning stove to heat the whole house). There'll be no traffic, and no great pressure to grout, so I don't suppose slow setting times will be an issue. In fact, given my novice status, I'll probably need all the time I can get

[Ajax123]

There is no reason why you shouldn't have the underfloor heating running to give you a surface temperature of 15 to 20 degrees C whilst you tile is there?

[velcro]

Velcro - did you source the adhesive yourself or were you given any advice from Lafarge Beton or La Chappe Liquide in making the choice?

This was the addy recommended by the tile shop where I got the vast majority of my tiles. I've had great difficulty talking to the guy that laid the screed - I get answerphone which he doesn't reply to & no response from my emails. About all he has done is send me a quote, do the work & then send me the bill. I've not spoken to anyone at Lafarge. Do you think there's an issue with the addy? The technote looks a good fit.

If anyone's interested, the screed was 21eur +VAT per m2 for a depth of 5-6cm.

[Ajax123]

This was the addy recommended by the tile shop where I got the vast majority of my tiles. I've had great difficulty talking to the guy that laid the screed - I get answerphone which he doesn't reply to & no response from my emails. About all he has done is send me a quote, do the work & then send me the bill. I've not spoken to anyone at Lafarge. Do you think there's an issue with the addy? The technote looks a good fit.

If anyone's interested, the screed was 21eur +VAT per m2 for a depth of 5-6cm.

No Velcro I don't think that there is a problem with the addy at all - on the contrary it makes a change to see someone pick the right stuff. Gypsum on Gypsum means no adverse reactions and a long term bond. Having said that of course there are shed loads more Gyvlon screeds going down in France compared to over here. I was just wondering if Lafarge over there were as pro active as we are over here. I guess though if the tile shops are advising correctly then Lafarge don't need to interfere really.

I just read what I typed and am now wondering how many people I will offend by the content......sorry everyone......

[velcro]

There is no reason why you shouldn't have the underfloor heating running to give you a surface temperature of 15 to 20 degrees C whilst you tile is there?

Oooh ... if only. Unfortunately, the sticker (from Lafarge) left by the "chapiste" said I have to bring it up to temperature progressively, and then stop it at least 2 days before tiling. If I knew what I was doing, and had +ve experience of not doing it this way, I'd be tempted, but as a newbie I don't think I've got any choice but to follow the tech notes.

Typical life of 40 minutes and you should spread no more than you can lay tiles in about 10 minutes cos it starts to skin on the floor.

that'll be about 2 tiles then

[Ajax123]

21 Euro for 100m2at 50 to 60mm is a little more than that size job would go for over here but then it does depend on the material costs. Was it screed only installation or did they do the prep work as well.

[Dave]

Are any of these floors in wet areas .. like bathrooms..?

[Ajax123]

Oooh ... if only. Unfortunately, the sticker (from Lafarge) left by the "chapiste" said I have to bring it up to temperature progressively, and then stop it at least 2 days before tiling. If I knew what I was doing, and had +ve experience of not doing it this way, I'd be tempted, but as a newbie I don't think I've got any choice but to follow the tech notes.



that'll be about 2 tiles then

Could be a long winter then

[Phil Hobson]

There is no reason why you shouldn't have the underfloor heating running to give you a surface temperature of 15 to 20 degrees C whilst you tile is there?

Is this Ok Alan, to have the ufh on whilst you tile, never knew that learn something new on this site everyday

[velcro]

Are any of these floors in wet areas .. like bathrooms..?

yes ... I am going to put up another post in the wetroom thread about my plans for the bathroom ... going to use BAL WP1 from here to tank it.

[Dave]

You will need to do the floors as well.. these screeds and gypsum adhesives DO NOT like getting over wet..

[Ajax123]

yes ... I am going to put up another post in the wetroom thread about my plans for the bathroom ... going to use BAL WP1 from here to tank it.

I thought French Building regs prohibitted the use of Gypsum substrates in Bathroom floors. Is that not correct then. I would have though Agilia Sol C steel would have been more appropriate over there in the bathroom floor. Not that it is a problem if you intend to tank it anyway.

[velcro]

21 Euro for 100m2at 50 to 60mm is a little more than that size job would go for over here but then it does depend on the material costs. Was it screed only installation or did they do the prep work as well.

I assumed that the plumber did all the prep work as part of laying the UFH, but I may be wrong. The quote includes sanding the laitence (which, I've discovered, is "brillant de surface" in French, and sanding is "ponçage" - every day is a school day)

[Ajax123]

Is this Ok Alan, to have the ufh on whilst you tile, never knew that learn something new on this site everyday

To be honest Phil I am not entirely certain as no one can seem to give me a deffinitive answer. It makes sense thoguh that the screed is at the right temperature to receive the adhesive i.e. ideal 20 degrees C. I know it sometimes happens and I am unaware of any issues resulting. I guess that Velcro has it right though - if the addy manufacturer and the screed suppliers say it must be cold then it must be cold.

[Ajax123]

I assumed that the plumber did all the prep work as part of laying the UFH, but I may be wrong. The quote includes sanding the laitence (which, I've discovered, is "brillant de surface" in French, and sanding is "ponçage" - every day is a school day)

oooohh! get you with your posh French stuff.