Adjudication and BS5385 for bad tiling work

[jasonh15]

Hi

I had a large extension done by a builder under JCT Minor Works (not home owner) which was designed and speced by an architect under a seperate contract.

A large limestone tiled area (nearly 70m2) was laid over wet underfloor heating set in screed and the tiles have subsequently cracked within 6 months with long linear cracks that span across the room.

No expansion joints were put in, no seperation layer was used, the UFH was not comissioned between the screed drying and tiles being laid and the screed was only allowed to dry for about 4 weeks. Doing my research since I have found these faults contravene the BS5383 standards for tiling.
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

Does anyone know if I can use the BS standard in the adjudication as evidence of his errors. Does the builder have to work to that standard or is it just a guide he can ignore. I am keen not to start a costly adjudication that I can't win.

[jay]

hi one question why is the architech at fault

[jasonh15]

Hi

My builder believes the architect is at fault for not specifying the expansion joints or seperation layer in his drawings. Also for not referencing the BS standard BS5385

The builder accepts the blame fully for the screed mistakes.

[mikethetile]

Hi Jason

we are not encouraged to give legal advice on this forum as its a tiling forum not a legal forum

but from experiance I would suggest you take legal action against your builder

it is the builders responsability to ensure the work is done to a "proper and workman like manner"

bs are the minimum standard that a job has to be carried out to, falling below bs the job is substandard

bs cannot be dismissed by a builder

contact your solicitor as you have a strong case against your builder, pm Dave and he will find a pro tiler near you that will visit and make a report

this may sound drastic when all you want is your issue resolved, but from my experiance once a builder starts apportioning blame to others theres no way back and you will need to find someone else to rectify the works

mike

[jay]

ha what a crock did architect specify door handle heights think the builders barking up wrong tree a tradesman would know the standards and do it right the standards are there as a guideline or reference but will stand in court

separation layer what type of screed have you got will need more info here
expansion joints are down to the tiler to place as per standards

[jasonh15]

I had a report done by Webers. The tiles came from Stonell and they arranged for Webers to do it.
It said that lack of expansion joints was the main reason and it needed redoing with weber mesh tech over the screed.

The screed is reinforced but beyond that I've no idea.

The room does have a lot of glazing so can get large heat variation in the room which might be a factor also.

Ajudication is the cheapest route for me to get recourse from the builder and also its the specifiied dispute resolution clause in the JCT contract that was used.

[jay]

1 okay the screed is just concrete !
the ufh wasnt comisioned before tile instalation
2 how thick is the screed
3 when you used the ufh what temp did you set it at to start with
as mentioned cant help legaly
some pics might help
4 is there any expansion joints at all if so how far apart

[jasonh15]

Thanks Jay.
Answers:
1. Possibly not sure - it looks like it has fibres in it
No the UFH was not commissioned before tiling (it was tested before the screed was poured just to check for leaks etc)
2. Around 70mm
3. Once we moved in it was not touched for maybe one month as it was summer. After that the UFH was turned on gradually over approximately 6 weeks to its max temperature
4. Just a perimeter expansion joint. The whole area is about 10m long and between 5.5 and 7.5 m wide.

[jay]

thanks do the tiles sound hollow when tapped

[jasonh15]

no not hollow
the weber guy took tiles up and there is cracking in the screed that aligns with the tile cracks
he believes the cracks are lines of pressure since no relief that would be provided by expansion joints and seperation layer

[willy]

there should at least have been an expansion joint running through the centre of the room as well as the perimeter, i think 40m2 bays is the max in this instance, although sometimes people don't like expansion joints especially on a multi sized format tile. we have just completed a project with wet UFH system to a college atrium with bays as mentioned above, ditra matting and then fixed with mapei 2 part adhesive, touch wood no cracks.

[jay]

oh do the cracks run in line with pipes in screed

[doug boardley]

thermal shock from ufh not being commissioned gradually before tiling installation would be my main culprit

[jasonh15]

jay - difficult to say whether the cracks run with the UFH pipes however the cracks run in both directions and have spans of 3 - 5 m I would say. There are only about 5 or 6 main long cracks so I would say unlikely that specific UFH sections have caused a crack.

Doug - thanks for that. Even as a layman it makes perfect sense to me to pre "crack" the screed before putting layer with different expansion properties on top of it.

[jay]

thermal shock from ufh not being commissioned gradually before tiling installation would be my main culprit

doug your on the money the slab hasnt had enough time to cure either
the cracks should follow pipes in slab (weak point also source of heat)

some pics of cracks and maybe the tile they lifted would help

[nybor62]

there should at least have been an expansion joint running through the centre of the room as well as the perimeter, i think 40m2 bays is the max in this instance, although sometimes people don't like expansion joints especially on a multi sized format tile. we have just completed a project with wet UFH system to a college atrium with bays as mentioned above, ditra matting and then fixed with mapei 2 part adhesive, touch wood no cracks.

with under ufh the bay area for expansion should be no bigger than 25m2

[Dave]

The Heating MUST be commissioned before tiling commences.. this allows the screed to expand with the first heating and any mayor cracking will occur then.

4 weeks is not enough drying time for the screed either.. 6 to 7 weeks would be more like it but as you say an uncoupling membrane would have made it quicker to tile on but not a necessity regarding Bs5385 standards.

BS5385 is a standard and not a regulation but producing the Standards will be taken into consideration if working practises are well below what should have been done.

we cannot advise what legal route to go down and as mentioned that is o nly for a legal person/company to decide if it is worthwhile you doing so .

But from what you have said the installation has been rushed.

[Pebbs]

'Puts my specification head on'

Under the terms of a JCT contract the appointed architect should have known that the legal requirement for any area over 50m2 has to have in place a movement joint. This applies only to one open area, should the areas be broken up into diff divisions then it should be agreed between the sub-contractor, main contractor, architect and client the best practice placement of such joints.
The sub-contractor can advise all the relevant parties of the above information, but is not responsible for any defects that should arise, if this advice is ignored.
The architect appointed by the client has a due and diligent responsibilty as the clients representative to ensure that the appointed contractor follows the specification and should any queries arise along the way, then confirm in writing the correct procedure and approvals as such.
As you quite rightly pointed out you can not take action against the architect for legal reasons. As Dave quite rightly pointed out we cannot give you advice on which legal route to follow.
As a side note, I have to advise you to think very carefully before commencing adjudication against the builder, I am sure if you research previous cases this will help you make a more informed decision on which route to go down.

Pebbs

[Pebbs]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

[jay]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

yes the architect walk es away on most probs but you as a tiler also have a choice backed by experience
if you do not agree with specs talk to all involved try to improve the situation so you feel confident with the end product with no kick backs
if you say nothing then things go pear shaped you wear it as does your reputation if it cant be done the right way then walk away or get something in writing to cover your but (probably not worth the paper its written on )

remember you have a choice

[Ajax123]

interesting thread. BS5385 only covers the tiling. It does not cover screed design nor underfloor heating. Why is your reliance entirely on the tiling standard yet you are blaming the screed for the failure. Surely you need more information available to you.

As fot the architect taking the rap - if the builder knew it was wrong why did he build it.

[Colour Republic]

As fot the architect taking the rap - if the builder knew it was wrong why did he build it.

Because he might have been following the architect's instructions, I've questioned specs before and been shot down, along the lines of "If you won't do it we'll find someone who will" and if you're on site you grumble your displeasure and right or wrong you sometimes get on with it but not before you get it in writing.

[Ajax123]

Because he might have been following the architect's instructions, I've questioned specs before and been shot down, along the lines of "If you won't do it we'll find someone who will" and if you're on site you grumble your displeasure and right or wrong you sometimes get on with it but not before you get it in writing.

I appreciate that Colour - my point was not well worded. What I was trying to say was both should share the rap on this. The architect for incorrectly designing the screed and the builder for building it. Of course if there is evidence that the builder has bought the design deficiencies to his attention and been ignored then so be it.

I guess what I am saying is that to find someone "guilty" in this I would need much more information than has been stated.

It could even be argued that if the tiler knew the screed was incorrectly designed then he should not have tiled ..... etc etc

[Colour Republic]

I appreciate that Colour - my point was not well worded. What I was trying to say was both should share the rap on this. The architect for incorrectly designing the screed and the builder for building it. Of course if there is evidence that the builder has bought the design deficiencies to his attention and been ignored then so be it.

I guess what I am saying is that to find someone "guilty" in this I would need much more information than has been stated.

It could even be argued that if the tiler knew the screed was incorrectly designed then he should not have tiled ..... etc etc

I agree and I believe the builder has held his hands up and admitted to his proportion but will not take full responsibility. But the architect has protected himself already, although really it sounds like the problem originated from them. The customer has been forced to go for the builder as the next in line and if he manages to defend himself it goes further down the line. Of course the customer is well within their rights to get the situation rectified as none of this is from any wrong doing on their part.

[Pebbs]

Ajax, can I ask you a question? what is the maximum amount of screed m2 at 50mm that can be completed in 8 hours? with no additive? Ground floor so no carting it up a few floors.

Pebbs

[Ajax123]

Ajax, can I ask you a question? what is the maximum amount of screed m2 at 50mm that can be completed in 8 hours? with no additive? Ground floor so no carting it up a few floors.

Pebbs

Depends on how quick you are at laying it, how you place it e.g. pump or wheel barrow etc, the quality of the screed, cement content etc. Also affected by actual supply to the work site i.e. if it is site mixed you need the mixers to keep up with the layers and vice versa.....

Also bear in mind that if it is a simple sand cement screed generally the minimum depth floating on insulation should be 65mm and not 50mm. If it is either unbonded or "partially bonded" i.e. straight onto an unprepared concrete slab then 50mm is fine as the minimum depth.

All that said I would probably aim for maximum of about 150m2 but realistically if you are asking the question as you are not sure how much you would ba able to do yourself it implies that you are not a screeder as such and you should cut this meterage down quite a bit. I have seen some screeders capable of laying 200m2 in a single day but that is going some IMO and takes practice and organisation.

I have not laid sand cement for several years. Last time was when I did my Kitchen on my own. About 25m2 mixed myself and laid myself at about 80mm and took about 9 hours altogether. A labouror would have cut the time in half at least.

Hoep that helps

Oh by the way if it is Gyvlon you could lay 1500 to 2000m2 in a day at 50mm.

[Dave]

Oh by the way if it is Gyvlon you could lay 1500 to 2000m2 in a day at 50mm.

I can vouch for that.. just saw about 80 mtrs + go down in a crack today.

[Ajax123]

I can vouch for that.. just saw about 80 mtrs + go down in a crack today.

that sounds just wrong on so many levels Dave - more especially so on a thread about cracked screeds and tiles

[Dave]

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