Does my tile look big in this? (newbie layout query)

[gspot]

Hi,

I'm new here, hoping for input on my kitchen floor. I've had a good look at the albums and read through many threads. We were hoping to use an imitation slate 600X600mm rectified porcelain tile (the black one).

Some pics for background attached.

1) Whilst I appreciate tile size is a personal preference, I wonder if you would suggest straight off this tile is too big for the room (this colourway only available 600 square, 300 square or 300X600)?
2) The floor is part suspended timber, part concrete/brick (used to be a fireplace/chimney breast around where the oven was many years ago). We have reinforced the joists and screwed down 18mm WBP ply. Would some kind of decoupling membrane (Ditra matting for example) be needed (and would we need it across the whole floor)?

3) The dominant visual features of the room for me are a) unusual 45 degree entrance b) back 'stable' door and c) shiny oven/hob. Whilst I will dry lay tiles to try and find ideal positioning to optimise the look for these three features, I'd appreciate suggestions for either:

- going inline with the oven (ie. 600mm tile in front, with tile to the left disappearing under plinth, one tile to the right, and a 180mm edging piece by the right hand wall) or instead taking a tile each side of a centre line from the oven (would give a 260mm piece under the plinth and a 490mm cut for the right hand wall).

- same sort of question for the back door: try and position a tile centrally, with small 130mm infill to each side), or move evenly dividing the space ?

4) Finally, the manufacturer's data sheet for this rectified tile suggests a 2mm grout line is OK (I would prefer to go this slim). Given the suspended timber/concrete subfloor, and because I want to install electric UFH (Devi, to match upstairs) would I likely be OK with 2mm or should I stick with 3mm to be safe ?

Thanks for any input,

Gerard.

[grumpygrouter]

600x600 tiles are harder to lay than 300x300 and you floor must be very flat to make life as easy as possible. On a timber floor I personally would not go down to 2mm for your joint and add to that the UFH....absolute minimum of 3mm and if it was me I would go even wider!!

[doug boardley]

I'd use an expansion joint where the two substrates meet

[gspot]

grumpy, ease aside (I'll get a pro if I can't handle this), do you reckon the 600 is too big for the space ? I fear 300 may feel too 'bitty'.

Doug, could you clarify which product from Schluter's range might be slimmest/most appropriate for me? I imagine I'll have a hard sell to SWMBO, but obvioulsy better than cracked grouting/split tiles after a few years...

Ta.

[grumpygrouter]

The tile size is a personal choice. Without seeing the whole space it would be difficult to gauge but my gut feeling is something a little smaller would be better. Do they do a 450x450? Obviously the bigger tiles give you less grout jointing but looking at your pics more closely, it seems like you have 6mm ply down...

[grumpygrouter]

Scrub that last comment, can see in your dialogue that it is 18mm ply!!

[doug boardley]

grumpy, ease aside (I'll get a pro if I can't handle this), do you reckon the 600 is too big for the space ? I fear 300 may feel too 'bitty'.

Doug, could you clarify which product from Schluter's range might be slimmest/most appropriate for me? I imagine I'll have a hard sell to SWMBO, but obvioulsy better than cracked grouting/split tiles after a few years...

Ta.

Before I trawl through their products, you'd better sell it to Maggie first

[Sir Ramic]

The tile size is a personal choice. Without seeing the whole space it would be difficult to gauge but my gut feeling is something a little smaller would be better. Do they do a 450x450? Obviously the bigger tiles give you less grout jointing but looking at your pics more closely, it seems like you have 6mm ply down...

Yeah it looks like it in one of the photos but in others you can see its 18mm. I assume its 18mm all over ?

[diamondtiling]

We must all think the same as I thought it looked thin.

[Sir Ramic]

We must all think the same as I thought it looked thin.

Its called "Tilers Eye"

[gspot]

lol, you lot...

Yeah, 18mm all round, with WBP stamp. Screwed around 150mm centres, stainless steel. :-)

They don't do this colour in a 450 square tile, which I think might be the ideal size for me... bigger than 'bitty' but maybe not quite as mahoosive as 600 square...

If I tell Maggie she needs an expansion joint, she'll get an expansion joint! If I can do without it, by installing Ditra mat etc. then I'd prefer without.

[diamondtiling]

Did you apply any sealers to the ply before laying? The underside and edges should be sealed.

[doug boardley]

Ditra won't be suitable to bridge the different substrates gspot

[gspot]

Edges sealed with PVA glue, underside not treated (will my world implode ? I thought this wasn't needed with WBP?) - the concrete foundation underneath is some 450mm from the top of the joists, and there is polystyrene insulation underneath the ply. Well ventilated, doesn't seem damp.

[diamondtiling]

Edges sealed with PVA glue, underside not treated (will my world implode ? I thought this wasn't needed with WBP?) - the concrete foundation underneath is some 450mm from the top of the joists, and there is polystyrene insulation underneath the ply. Well ventilated, doesn't seem damp.

Why would your world implode??
Advice is given freely to all askers by tilers that give up their free time to help. If you have such a big gap beneath your floor then its advisable to apply a coat of bond to stop the boards from curling.
As for using PVA for the edges, that was a mistake, you should have left a small 2mm gap for expansion purposes.

[gspot]

Humour, diamond, 'tis all. I was just wondering how important sealing the underside of WBP was to ensure a successful outcome. I thought as they were exterior grade/weatherproof they wouldn't be affected by humidity.

[jay]

you've thought wrong its still timber

[Bolter]

With the other question, personally, I would use ditra on the ply flooring, and an expansion joint along the two substrates.

If you don't know, you need a flexible floor adhesive and grout. The floor adhesive must be trowelled (notched) down to ensure as close to 100% coverage of adhesive is underneath the tile.

Use a decent, tilersforum reccomended adhesive. If you get some from a DIY giant, it may not be quite fit for purpose, so be careful. If you arent sure, just ask.

[gspot]

Interesting about the underside. Had never thought of this.

Is there one particular expansion joint technique/product that is particularly suited for residential use (ie. non obtrusive, ideally as close to a 3 or 4mm dark grey grout as is possible?

I know about needing a flexible adhesive/grout, thanks, but will make sure it's suitable for the tiles and substrate first.

Cheers.

Any comment on the initial layout question anyone ? (ie. positioning wrt oven, door etc. - I take it it would be visually nicer to position a whole tile in front of the oven than hitting a grout line to the centre ?

[Bolter]

Expansion Joints from www.protilertools.co.uk

[gspot]

Cheers, Bolter.

Just thinking aloud, and forgive my ignorance if this is a rubbish idea, but could a matching silicon be used instead of an expansion joint ?

[gspot]

Cheers, Bolter.

Just thinking aloud, and forgive my ignorance if this is a rubbish idea, but could a matching silicon be used instead of an expansion joint ?

[Bolter]

Cheers, Bolter.

Just thinking aloud, and forgive my ignorance if this is a rubbish idea, but could a matching silicon be used instead of an expansion joint ?

Why bother when you have a product custom made for this problem? It may work, it might fail. Personally, a floor like yours is too expensive to risk.

Also, just a tip, but the flatter the floor, the easier it is to tile, and more importantly, the better the finish. If your floor isnt flat, come back to us if you need advice. Run a straight edge over it (or a really long level) and check for peaks and dips.

[gspot]

Fair enough. I'll look into a proper expansion joint. The floor is fairly flat. As per some of the photos, some of the ply may be 1 or 2mm proud of other sheets, so I'll either resecure them flat or feather the egde as needed and lose any nibs/bumps in the self-levelling we used to tidy up the old concrete hearth.

[Bolter]

fairly flat.

Well its either flat, or its not. There unfortunately is no in-between. But you are sorting it, which is wise as you will find it a whole load easier if you do.

[Tecnik2000]

Grumpy's right about the joints, surely 600's need at least4-5mm to make them look right, the tighter the joint the better the levels need to be agreed, but a rustic look, might want rustic grouting?

[gspot]

lol Bolter. I will strive for flat.

I appreciate the tile is fairly slate like, but overall it's a generally very consistent surface - not overly riven IYSWIM, so we're not trying to go particularly rusitc, and tighter grout lines I think can help things seem more modern. Point noted though about tighter lines requiring even finer tile positioning.

[pjc]

Silicone the expansion joint looks better in domestics large tiles look better on a small floor IMO

[gspot]

The expansion joint would be needed right where you stand at the sink and using the oven, so I think I would prefer it to be as subtle as possible, and not really catch the eye as the space is not exactly massive...

Cheers for your input pjc.