Tiler and joiner at loggerheads...help!

[slartibardfast]

Hi there

I'm trying to get some tiles down on our bathroom floor (not a big room just about 2x2 M)

What we've got at the moment is old, soggy (in places) chipboard secured onto joists (there's a 3 foot crawlspace underneath). This obviously needs to come up....so far so good!

My problem is that the joiner wants to put in new, green T&G Chipboard. he is insistent that this will be fine for tiling directly onto.

The tiler is very reluctant to tile over chipboard, even new chipboard and wants 25mm ply down instead (screwed onto the joists).

Neither of them seem willing to budge (the joiner seems to think the t & g chipboard will be a stronger floor, the tiler cites manufacturers recommendations).

I'm starting to get a bit hacked off at the whole thing and wondered what the consensus from you guys might be both in terms of what to put down and how to deal with the tradesmen?

Cheers

Steve

[GirlRacerRed]

Steve

If you tiler wants 25mm ply, then tell your joiner to lay 25mm ply. Your tiler knows best with regards to what substrate's are good or not good for tiling on. Your joiner should just do what he is told.

get the ply screwed down at 300mm centres or less. The more screws attaching the ply to the joists, the more rigid the ply becomes and the better the base for tiling on.

I don't know the ins and outs of using ply or chipboard or anything else for floor tiling but that's because I'm not a pro. A few of the pro's on here will be along shortly with their views.

Your tiler is covering himself by opting for 25mm ply. The floor needs to be rigid with no deflection otherwise the tiles will come away from the floor.

GRR

[Bolter]

the tiler is 100% right. How would the chippy know what is right to tile onto? He is a chippy.

The tiler seems to know exactly the correct subfloor, and the chippy should be taking his advice. The tiler wouldnt advise him on how to put a nail in would he?

I love how everyone is an expert on tiling except the tilers.

If you take the chippys advice on this floor, you will be paying for the floor twice, as it WILL fail. Chipboard is the opposite of the correct substrate. Print this out and show him, then slap him with a wet fish and tell him to do what you want as you are paying him.

[doug boardley]

your tiler is right! Chipboard is not a suitable substrate to tile onto. Tell your joiner to look on this site if he is persisting!,25mmWBP is the way to go, with the underside and edges sealed with an acrylic sealer/primer. Whilst the old floor is up and your joists exposed get the joiner to fit extra noggins too, as this will minimise deflection.
My personal choice though would be 18mm WBP and overlayed with 6mm hardiebacker board glued and screwed

[Phil Hobson]

your tiler is right! Chipboard is not a suitable substrate to tile onto. Tell your joiner to look on this site if he is persisting!,25mmWBP is the way to go, with the underside and edges sealed with an acrylic sealer/primer. Whilst the old floor is up and your joists exposed get the joiner to fit extra noggins too, as this will minimise deflection.
My personal choice though would be 18mm WBP and overlayed with 6mm hardiebacker board glued and screwed

Spot on as always Doug

[slartibardfast]

the tiler is 100% right. How would the chippy know what is right to tile onto? He is a chippy.

The tiler seems to know exactly the correct subfloor, and the chippy should be taking his advice. The tiler wouldnt advise him on how to put a nail in would he?

I love how everyone is an expert on tiling except the tilers.

If you take the chippys advice on this floor, you will be paying for the floor twice, as it WILL fail. Chipboard is the opposite of the correct substrate. Print this out and show him, then slap him with a wet fish and tell him to do what you want as you are paying him.

....any specific type of wet fish?

[Bolter]

....any specific type of wet fish?

A slightly smelly trout would suffice

[mikethetile]

If your chippie wont play ball let him go, theres no end of good chippies about but a shortage of decent tilers
your tiler knows his stuff , so stick with him
if he doesnt get his 25mm ply he wont lay the floor, alternativly get a price from him to lay the ply

[Bubbs]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

[Sir Ramic]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

6mm Ply is a no no.....
As Doug has said, 18mm (At least) WBP ply primed back and sides then 6mm Tile backer board.

[mikethetile]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

6mm ply is for overboarding to lay vinyl, for tiling its 18mm minimum as stated in previous posts

[doug boardley]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

to much chance of deflection imo Mark with 6mm ply, minimum ply overboard is 12mm according to BS

[diamondtiling]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

6mm ply is not good enough Bubbs.

[grumpygrouter]

Hi There I am a tiler, you need to plyboard it you can use a 6mm ply.
do not tile on chipboard.
Mark

Just to reinforce what the other guys said, 6mm ply is NOT appropriate to tile onto!

[Rob Z]

Hi Steve If chipboard in the UK is what we call OSB in North America, then I'll second what everyone has said. As a way to hopefully have a breakthrough with the chippy on site, show him how a bit of water will bead up on the surface of the OSB.....the waxy coating and the glues that hold all that junk together also works against tile setting mortars when they are trying to get a "bite" into the substrate. Surely he will be able to see that and then he and the tilesetter can work together as a team after that.

[Rob Z]

Is this chipboard? This is our OSB, which we derisively refer to as Beaver Barf or Vertical Mulch.

[doug boardley]

Is this chipboard? This is our OSB, which we derisively refer to as Beaver Barf or Vertical Mulch.

this is chipboard Rob, i know the one you posted as Stirling Board

[diamondtiling]

thats not chipboard Rob, CB is much more dense than that material, its virtually made from compressed dust and resins.

I will find a picture.

Chipboard Flooring - Grade P5 V313 - (L)2400 x (W)600 x (T)18mm --- Manchester Timber Co - The Independent Timber Merchant Supplying The North West

[doug boardley]

^^^^^^

thats not chipboard Rob, CB is much more dense than that material, its virtually made from compressed dust and resins.

I will find a picture.

Chipboard Flooring - Grade P5 V313 - (L)2400 x (W)600 x (T)18mm --- Manchester Timber Co - The Independent Timber Merchant Supplying The North West

[diamondtiling]

Good minds and all that Doug..................

[Rob Z]

Dom thanks, that looks like what we call "particle board", which we like even less than Beaver Barf. With the restriction on foul language, I won't be able to post the nickname we have for that.

[diamondtiling]

Dom thanks, that looks like what we call "particle board", which we like even less than Beaver Barf. With the restriction on foul language, I won't be able to post the nickname we have for that.

I just read the American term for it on Wikipedia, it has its place in construction but not for tiles. I use it as flooring in lofts.

[Rob Z]

Dom, particle board has been used for decades as the substrate for laminate countertops. When I first started in the business, I was a chippy and we made our own countertops on the jobsite and always did the "upsell" and used high quality plywood in place of particle board as the substrate.

Incredibly, particle board was used for years as a substrate/subfloor in many houses and house trailers. On tile and construction forums in the US and Canada, you can periodically read posts by people that want to tile over particle board and don't want to tear it out down to the joists and start over. And they don't want to hear the advice from all of us that tell them that this is something that they should do.

[slartibardfast]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

Somebody is going to be fitting 18mm ply with 6mm tiling board glued and screwed on top!

[doug boardley]

your tiler will be the best man to fit the hardiebacker board, it's "glued down" with flexible tile adhesive!

[doug boardley]

Good minds and all that Doug..................

and fools seldom differ

[mikethetile]

our nickname for chipboard is weetabix as it dissolves when wet

I dont know if they have a breakfast cereal similar in the us Rob but its basicly a wheat biscuit that you pour milk over

like you we used to fix laminate to ply on site to make counter tops , far better job than chipboard

we havent got a nickname for osb but I like beaver barf so thats what it will be known as from this day

[Rob Z]

Mike, it sounds like you are describing "shredded wheat" cereal-one that I used to eat a lot when I was a kid visiting Grandma and Grandpa.

[Sir Ramic]

Shredded Wheat
wheat.jpg

[mikethetile]

Its very similar Rob