Pictures: Tiles on wooden floor: moving and grout cracking

[pilsburypie]

Hi all. First post as I found this forum whilst searching for my problem. Had a builder round last March to "do" my 1st floor bathroom (move wall, plaster, paint, tile install new suite). The floor which floor boards was covered in 6mm marine ply, screwed every ft and flexible adhesive and flexible bal grout was used.

Within 2 weeks the grout had cracked and some bit had risen. I asked him to sort which he did by just scraping out the offending areas of grout and redoing. That seemed OK for the couple of weeks he was finishing off. Over the last 10 months the tiles have slumped and risen, grout has come out and cracked and the whole floor looks really tatty. I have contacted him and after a few words he has come round and agreed to take the floor up and re-lay saying it maybe the movement between the floorboards and joists that is causing movement. He also says if it happens again it will not be his fault as it must be a "whip" in the joists causing it.

I really don't want another tatty floor in a few months so am wondering if the same will happen again or if he is saying all this to absolve a sloppy job done in the first instance. I know loads of people with tiled floors over floorboards without this problem.... Have any of you heared about tiles moving due to flexing joists? A bloke at tiles-r-us recons that it should no way happen with BAL adhesives and grout.......

Could do with some impartial advice so I can bite the bullet and lay laminate or lino if it is a no-brainer.

Cheers

Mark

[Sir Ramic]

6mm ply is too thin. 15mm minimum is recommended. 18mm more readily available. If the Floor was free from deflection before you had the tiles laid then a 6mm tile backer board would have been the answer.

Only way to cure your problem now is to redo it.

[doug boardley]

This is exactly why 6mm ply as an overlay is a no no! I'd recommend he removes the floor boards and installs 18mm WBP plywood and then overlay with 6mm hardiebacker board. Whilst floorboards are up, he'll be wise to put some more noggins in too.

[aqua blue]

The tiling is appalling. Get someone else to set them next time is my advice.

[diamondtiling]

The tiling is appalling. Get someone else to set them next time is my advice.

It would not have mattered aqua if the tiles were perfectly laid, they are on the wrong substrate and were always going to have problems.

[Dontiler]

6 mm ply is way to thin, if floor high is issue, then you could remove floor boards, and put ply straight on noggins and then overlay with 6mm hardiebacker board, or 12mm ply +12 mm ply and overlay floor with Ditra mating, that works too

[mikethetile]

sorry this has happened to you pilsburypie

the above advice is spot on and i wont add to it

the guy in tiles r us is clueless and I would ignore his advice

tell your builder he has specified your job wrong and he needs to come back in and redo it or you will take legal action against him

[david campbell]

i wouldn't bother to get him back to sort it,i would demand a full refund,take it up yourself(shouldn't be too hard by the looks of the pics) and get a decent tiler in to do it properly because if thats his first attampt then i'm not sure his second would be much better

ps- welcome to the forum

[diamondtiling]

<------------- Salesman from tiles r us.

[aqua blue]

"Have any of you heared about tiles moving due to flexing joists?"

Could be true, but had the job been done correctly he would have been able to check for that and added noggins if needed. With the correct flooring most of the flex in the joists would have been taken out. All joists have some movement, that's why it's important to have a thicker more stable floor upon which to tile.

[aqua blue]

I see it like this....

Apart from doing the job right.
Floor tiles are heavy.
Checking the condition and strenght of the joists has a safety issue too.

[Gazzatile]

Yes your right the more weight you put on the floor the more movement you are likley to create. Agree with the lads 6mm is not suitable for tiling onto.

[Rich]

As everybody above has said (especially Diamondtiling ). All the blame is on the builder, he has no idea what he is doing when it comes to tiling. The joists should have been secured before laying min 15mm ply. Get your money back and If you send Dave a private message Im sure he will give you the details of one of the experts from your area who can put the job right.
P.S
Spread the word, dont listen to builders who say "Yeah, I can do your tiling"

[Phil Hobson]

Sorry about your floor, but as above 6mm is not the way to prep a timber floor. Hope you get it sorted Good luck.

[pilsburypie]

Thankyou all for you huge response and advice. A tiler he certainly isn't loads of his cuts have chipped edged and his mitred corners for the trim are rubbish...... but this really faded into insignificance 10 months ago when the job was done due to the flooring issues.

The tiles on the floor were flat initially, the slump of some on their beds has happened over the last 10 months since they were laid.

He is coming back to take the floor up but pretty much intended to relay doing the same! So your advice (apart from telling him to get lost and taking to court) is to take the floor up and lay 15mm ply over the floorboards before relaying........ or as some say remove floorboards and put 18mm followed by 6mm?

Seems mad me telling this "expert" what to do!!

Cheers

[diamondtiling]

Just add lots of extra noggins before fixing the ply, you cant have too many. Prime the underside and edges of the ply before fitting.

[doug boardley]

the 6mm needs to be hardiebacker type board,not plywood!

[diamondtiling]

Are you going to let this guy relay your floor?

Get your money back and invest in an expert who will give you a guarantee, there are plenty on here.

[Terry Cottar]

Sounds to me as if your Builder is trying to be a "Jack of all Trades". Tiling is a Skilled job as is every other trade.

There is a huge difference in saying you can do it and actually "Doing it Correctly" I thought I could hang wallpaper and paint reasonably competently IMHO until I saw a time served painter & decorator doing it. Then I realised I was OK and passable but will never be any where near his standard. There are too many builders out there who believe they can do it all and it is just not possible to be an expert and specialist in all fields.

tel

[wayno1664]

6mm ply should never be used . 18mm ply would solve the problem

[mikethetile]

you wont get 15mm in the uk and if you tell your builder 15mm he will supply 12mm which isnt sufficiant, the next available size up is 18mm and needs to be wbp
this will be stamped on the board , check it before he lays

overboarding with 18mm causes height issues so its best to rip up existing and relay as advised above. also prime boards front and back with a suitable primer

not paint or pva but the primer reccomended for the addy

I still feel that although you do need give him an oppurtunity to redeem himself and retrieve the job

I have no confidence in him as he has already wrongly spec the job and after being called back didnt have the sense to investigate the problem and resolve it
he is right in his claim that joist movement is the cause ,but knowing that to be a problem failed to take measures to overcome this issue before laying the tiles

refer him onto this thread and we will advise him

or if he wont play ball , shut the door on him and go legal to recover the costs you have incurred so far

you have the pick of the best tilers in the world on this site , at least one will live near you

mike

[pilsburypie]

I wish I had found this forum before I had my bathroom done. The advice given here is a breath of fresh air compared to the madness I have heared from so called experts.

Can I be as cheeky as to ask you all to have a look at my new post regarding the rest of the tiling job he did to a similar standard....

[Dave]

Will do.. going to look now.

[Phil22]

If you had asked the builder to build you a brick wall, he wouldn't (or shouldn't) do it on a soft or flexible foundation, he would make sure the foundation was solid and suitable enough for the conditions first.
This is the exact same principle in tiling, the foundation or substrate has to be rigid and stable enough to take the tile first.

Apart from the wrong ply used, the use of flexible adhesive and grout does not solve deflection problems as many non-tilers assume as the flexible surface, your wooden floor, is set to your adhesive which is in turn set to the riged tile that is Not Flexible. So when your wooden floor moves underfoot, the rigid tiles are forced to move too, which results in cracked grout and broken tiles. So it doesnt matter how flexible the adhesive is, the tile will always move unless the substrate is made good with minimal deflection first.

Agree with previous comments on minimum thickness of ply etc.

[diamondtiling]

If you had asked the builder to build you a brick wall, he wouldn't (or shouldn't) do it on a soft or flexible foundation, he would make sure the foundation was solid and suitable enough for the conditions first.
This is the exact same principle in tiling, the foundation or substrate has to be rigid and stable enough to take the tile first.

Apart from the wrong ply used, the use of flexible adhesive and grout does not solve deflection problems as many non-tilers assume as the flexible surface, your wooden floor, is set to your adhesive which is in turn set to the riged tile that is Not Flexible. So when your wooden floor moves underfoot, the rigid tiles are forced to move too, which results in cracked grout and broken tiles. So it doesnt matter how flexible the adhesive is, the tile will always move unless the substrate is made good with minimal deflection first.

Agree with previous comments on minimum thickness of ply etc.

Could not agree more, good post.

[aqua blue]

"the use of flexible adhesive and grout does not solve deflection problems"

I hear this from clients all the time.

My reply is always- "Yes, but it doesn't make the tile flexible."

I think a lot of the problem with the 'light touch tilers' is one, ignorance and more seriously, if they tell the client that this is all that's needed they insure their quote remains the cheapest and make others look as thou they are trying to bump up the quote.

[whitebeam]

Builders

[diamondtiling]

These lot seem to know what they are doing, I would not hesitate to hire them.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjfQ5ca0dBQ]YouTube - bad builders[/ame]

[aqua blue]

LMAO. 36 seconds in...

A builder with a ladder phobia? No wonder they don't like 18mm ply!

[paulc2012]

If you're stuck with having to use the guy, at least for the moment, make sure the boards are screwed, not nailed, and use an elastomeric adhesive like the one from Bal here (follow link)

http://194.223.92.131/pdf/Technical%...s/BAL_Flex.pdf

good luck
___________________________
paulc2012
http://www.oakenstone.co.uk