What the heck has happened to my tiles?!

[stumperchov]

at the end of July I paid for my bathroom to be fully tiled - it was worth doing as I must say it makes the whole bathroom experience that much more pleasurable.

however, having a shower one morning I got the huff cause I thought the mrs hadn't been doing the cleaning properly as i thought i could see cobwebs on the opposite wall.

on closer inspection it wasn't cobwebs at all, instead 7 tiles (next to each other) had cracked - some with only one crack but 3 or 4 had completely bowed and shattered!

Obviously I got the tiler back in for him to detect the problem but unfortunately having removed the 7 tiles he is none the wiser! There are was no blasts in the wall or anything.

There are a few things to consider:

1) Out of the four walls tiled this was the only one not reskimmed.
2) The wall slopes away at the top, meaning more flexible tile adhesive was used and even an extra tile in the corner (not on one of the cracked tiles) was used to pack out the space.
3) On the removal of the tiles the adhesive came away from the wall rather than the tile away from the adhesive.
4) The wall plaster is pretty old ie the bits of it that did come away were powdery and mixed with hair.

The tiler, who I have to say did an excellent looking job, is baffled as to what has happened.

Can anyone offer any advice - I am worried if we just retile the same thing will just reoccur in a feww months.

thanks

tom

[doug boardley]

can you post us some pics stumper?

[Sir Ramic]

Is this wall an outside wall by any chance ?

[stumperchov]

no its the wall from bathroom to my bedroom.

i can post a pic later today from home

[jay]

hi bit more info please type of adhesive structual backround stud or solid is there grout in corners did tiler use tanking or waterproofing and last is there crackes in plaster a picture might help thanks

[stumperchov]

hi Jay,
What I can answer:
1) flexible floor adhesive used... powder mix
2) no cracks in plaster.
3) Solid wall not stud
3) pic can be provided later
4) grout in corners? what do you mean? 2mm of grout between tiles and ceiling.

[jay]

hi internal corners were tiles meet each other or shower base and any tanking or waterproofing

[Sir Ramic]

I would say that it could be the extra moisture from bedding out the tiles with extra adhesive.
Its hard to say without seeing the area really, pics may help but nothing better than being there.

[stumperchov]

ok. Grout in corners yes - no cracking or coming away here.

I was told that the walls were treated prior to tiling, I assume but may be wrong, this was done with a tanking and waterproofing product.

The cracking seems to have shattered a couple of the tiles completely, although these were still fixed solid to the wall. The tiles also seemed like they had been pushed from behind, creating a curve in the tile and those further donw the wall were worse than those at the edge. The epicenter if you like seems to be coming from the two most severely cracked tiles, then worked its way across and up.

[Sir Ramic]

You should have a silicone gap in the corners not grout. Sounds like movement to me.

[stumperchov]

I assume the moisture is causing the adhesive to expand forcing the tile and itself away from the wall?

The majority of the wall is fine, so using another substance other than adhesive to pack out the wall e.g plaster, allowing that to set then re plastering may be a solution?

[Sir Ramic]

Just read your other post and i feel that the problem will be that you dont have a silicone joint in the corner of the wall.

[stumperchov]

would this not cause the grout to crack and the corner tiles to crack first?

[doug boardley]

not necessarily, it all depends where the stress builds up

[doug boardley]

Can we merge these threads Neale?

[stumperchov]

I will need to check this ie double check grout not silicone on edges.
... we are pretty sure ie me, plumber and tiler there has been no recent movement but there must have been some in the past to mean we have had to pack out as much as we have.

It just bugs me that this is the area where the most tile adhesive has been used to ensure a level finish - just coincidence?

[stumperchov]

Ok, can confirm that silicone has been used around the edges not grout...

Could it have anything to do with how much adhesive that has been used to pack out the space... thinking it could have been mixed differently or simply expanded after application?

If mositure is the cause, how would this get into the substrate?

[whitebeam]

at the end of July I paid for my bathroom to be fully tiled - it was worth doing as I must say it makes the whole bathroom experience that much more pleasurable.

however, having a shower one morning I got the huff cause I thought the mrs hadn't been doing the cleaning properly as i thought i could see cobwebs on the opposite wall.

on closer inspection it wasn't cobwebs at all, instead 7 tiles (next to each other) had cracked - some with only one crack but 3 or 4 had completely bowed and shattered!

Obviously I got the tiler back in for him to detect the problem but unfortunately having removed the 7 tiles he is none the wiser! There are was no blasts in the wall or anything.

There are a few things to consider:

1) Out of the four walls tiled this was the only one not reskimmed.
2) The wall slopes away at the top, meaning more flexible tile adhesive was used and even an extra tile in the corner (not on one of the cracked tiles) was used to pack out the space.
3) On the removal of the tiles the adhesive came away from the wall rather than the tile away from the adhesive.
4) The wall plaster is pretty old ie the bits of it that did come away were powdery and mixed with hair.

The tiler, who I have to say did an excellent looking job, is baffled as to what has happened.

Can anyone offer any advice - I am worried if we just retile the same thing will just reoccur in a feww months.

thanks

tom

This is lime mortor on wooden laths, the reason this type of plastering has lasted so long because it can flex and when not be resticted on movement.

Just my pennys worth but I never tile onto this surface, it was never designed for the purpose, only for lime washes or paint in later years.

[Dave]

If yo have tiles cracking then it is either movement of the substrate and if no cracks there then you have surface tension and this will be perimeter expansion problems..

[tfs]

Adhesive are limmited in terms of bed thickness and building up. It may be that the adhesive was applied in one go at a thick bed/depth.

also as whitebeam mentioned with lathes and other timbers etc there can be movement. I beleive that it is possible that there may have been moiture movement or thermal movement in the timber. Grout and adhesive will not stop some water/moisture going through to the substrate as the grout etc is normally cement based unlless using an epoxy grout ofcourse, this is why some people choose to use tanking kits to protect the substrate and reduce or elliminate expansion due to wetness and moisture being absorbed through grout.

[stumperchov]

hi guys, thanks for all this... giving me a real lesson if nothing else. I have uploaded some images, take a look and let me know if this cements your thoughts...
TilersForums.co.uk | Tile Forums | Tiling Forum - stumperchov's Albums

To let you know, the walls are breeze block and not timber so I don't think the wooden lathe comes in to it... but what do I know!? Please shoot me down if talking crap.

As mentioned previously the three other walls were replastered. Do you think I should remove all remaining tiles on this wall and do the same? Or, can i get away with repairing the affected area? If so, how? thaks

[Colour Republic]

That really is cracked! which I would say is caused by compression not expansion to crack like that

[whitebeam]

hi guys, thanks for all this... giving me a real lesson if nothing else. I have uploaded some images, take a look and let me know if this cements your thoughts...
TilersForums.co.uk | Tile Forums | Tiling Forum - stumperchov's Albums

To let you know,the the walls are breeze block and not timber so I don't think wooden lathe comes in to it... but what do I know!? Please shoot me down if talking crap.

As mentioned previously the three other walls were replastered. Do you think I should remove all remaining tiles on this wall and do the same? Or, can i get away with repairing the affected area? If so, how? thaks

So where was the lime mortor coming from when you took the tile off, breeze block was'nt about then it was clay bricks

[Colour Republic]

So where was the lime mortor coming from when you took the tile off, breeze block was'nt about then it was clay bricks

He said it was old dusty and mixed with hair. I thought the same as you when I read it.

Have you seen the pics? i don't think it's breeze block under there, he might have got confused with an internal wall that was built at a later date

[whitebeam]

Looks like a gypsum finish but has it been primed, the adhesive looks gritty to me

[Max_Damage]

The cracked tile looks like crazing. Are the tiles flat or bent?.
Do you have an original dry tile left to test for craze resistance?

This is caused by moisture expansion of the bisque making the tile bow out from the middle of the tile. The glaze is in compression to prevent crazing but will fail if the bisque expands.

[jay]

deffo something going on whats the name of adh and was plaster wet as it looks wet

[jay]

sorry i was missing the main prob poor prep work way to much paint on walls no sign of walls be spread with adh tiles must of been loaded with adh and laid seems to be two types of adh used and if built out in one go not a good practice .due to weight of tiles and adh tiles have debonded from wall causing it to bow away until finally something gave , recommend you tap rest of wall to see if its sound.

[stumperchov]

Everyone, all of the above information has been invaluable - thank you. I have explained a number of possible explanations to the guy who project managed the bathroom and he is satisfied that this is something we can resolve with some confidence that the issue won't reoccur.

I still want to find out info on the adhesive used, and will pass this on once I've got it.

I'll let you know how I get on.
thanks
Tom

[Bolter]

Interesting thread, hope no-one minds if I post this and therefore subscribe