how should you pick a tiler

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

should we allow the title of TILER to be given away to someone who completes a four day course or insist on a three year apprenticeship is it not confusing for a punter, its our trade should we not be more protective of our trade

[Colour Republic]

What do you mean? are you refering to the 'Established Tiler' tag that some members have?

Or nothing to do with TF?

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

nothing to do with TF, i mean the industry

[davy_G]

Its like any industry, 'till its regulated properly with a certified training or guaranteed minimum skills/knowledge/ability status then anyone can call themselves what they like.
Also if there was a minimum standards and a proper accredited membership body, then all those in that body should be able to charge minimum set prices.

I think its a great idea like a chartered institute of tilers, the CIT.

I suppise C&G, site safety cards and other trainig courses are a step in the right direction but a mile off where the industry needs to be. Thing is I cant really see how to regulate it.

[timeless john]

I don't think that what we may have as opinions - as to the ability of a person to call themselves a 'tiler '- matters to anyone but the customer who is prepared to pay a novice to do a job.
As highlighted by CR in his good thread of last week, there seems to be a lot of trainees/diy threads being posted (with some pretty basic questions IMHO) however I can see that this is the role of the Tilers Forum to help where possible and for those that I feel I can be of assistance - I respond!
With regard to the industry, I think the NVQ system and restrictions for access to building sites will certainly help the quality of Tiling/Tilers but there is no qualifications required for domestic work. This scenario I'am afraid is not confined just to Tiling, and is in every occupation - I'am a decorator because I've just wallpapered my bedroom!
Gooner - I don't know the answer to your thread - but I have very strong opinions on the length of time it should take for a person to be equipped to undertake a job for reward (any job) and I do wonder at times if the customer is only interested in cost rather than asking the more important questions as to the 'Tilers' background/portfolio.

[Prem Tiler]

I agree with you guys and think there will be very few if any 'tilers' reply to this thread through fear of being shoot down in flames.

What I think is important is the standard of job that a 'Experienced tiler' will get as apposed to a novice. Of the jobs you get called to price what % would you say are more interested in how low the price will be rather than importantly your experience, training and qualifications to tile to the highest standard money can buy?

I would think those who are after a job on the cheap are much more likely to get the price their prepared to pay from an inexperienced tiler who is more keen to build on their portfolio more than a time served tiler who could do the job with there eyes closed in half the time with less problems.

Now they should ask the novice is he/she can prove the standard of work but most won't. Wrong on the customers behalf not the 'tilers'

As long as the novice is keen and goes about the job the right way, applying the skills they have learnt, cutting no corners and dedicating them self's 100% the the job. There's nothing to say the end result wont be the same. Its just how you get there.

After all you get what you pay for. But where the problem lyes is as you all mention no affiliation to an industry standards agency or department. The big problem is unlike electrics and gas plumbing, tiling has (yes some but) little threat to life when done wrong.

I think the NVQII is great but until every one knows to ask its not much use in the domestic market.

I just think every one needs to start some where its the customer who needs to do there home work to get what they pay for.

[Phil Hobson]

I am so pleased this topic has arisen, it'my passion. I consider myself, as I'm sure many other members do, to be a master craftsman. A four day course is a joke, a four week course should be considered a basic introduction to the art of tiling. I served a five year apprenticeship, attended Manchester college of building ( day release) for five years. Result, C&G. I have been a pro tiler for 43yrs, as I have no doubt stated many times I am still learing. In a previous thread the licensing system of Australia was touched on. IMHO this is the way forward. Far from trying to disuade people from learning this noble trade. I think we need to put in place some restrictions.To ensure the public are not put at risk, from novices. Sorry to go on, but as I said, It is my passion.

[davy_G]

Im a product of a 4 week school. Definitely didnt make me a pro...yet i was turned loose onto the domestic & commercial market. Am i pro now? Well make my living from self employed tiling but that isnt a pro in my book.

[Prem Tiler]

I totally agree with you Phil but atm it is almost impossible for someone to get on an apprentice and collage courses are like rocking horse poo.

The Australian AQFIII system is excellent but to replicate it here would not be at all possible. Like re inventing the wheel I'm afraid.

I think the tile shop's and such as like hold quite alot of responsibility. there should be a minimum standard to the tiler who they are willing to recomend but although lots pretend to they are easily swayed to recomend there mates and those who buy alot of materials from them.

[Phil Hobson]

Im a product of a 4 week school. Definitely didnt make me a pro...yet i was turned loose onto the domestic & commercial market. Am i pro now? Well make my living from self employed tiling but that isnt a pro in my book.

Davy G I'm not knocking courses, It all comes down to indavidual mind set, ( attention to detail etc). I know plenty of time served fixers, who are still crap.

[Ajax123]

I cannot for the life of me see how anyone who has been on a 4 day tiling course could call them selves anything other than a new tiler. They certainly have none of the expertise or experience which leads to true proffessionalism. (wow thats lots of f's and s's). I being a non tiler with a technical background in lots of flooring types would probably know as much as those straight from a 4 day course. Trouble with regulation is that the industry could become over regulated like plumbing and electrics (IMO) so that competent and sensible but officially unqualified people cannot do it themselves. Mind you not sure anyone has died from bad tiling.....

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

i think we should have some kind of industry minimum standard that should be met before you can Carrie out tile installations, and more protection for the customer in the form of laws that are enforceable, and from our point we should be payed quicker

[frankenfurter]

should we allow the title of TILER to be given away to someone who completes a four day course or insist on a three year apprenticeship is it not confusing for a punter, its our trade should we not be more protective of our trade

An excellent and brave point to make; especially on a forum that once used to be dominated by sponsorship from such tiling courses.

Like many old boys who've been in the business a long time I really dig the whole time served apprenticeship format, being accepted onto an apprenticeship used to be something to boast about and be proud of, something which showed your determination and commitment to the trade and indeed your career; I and many other old boys feel this is lost with the new short courses available.

While I'll openly admit I send my new recruits on a short course before they start our formal apprenticeship, it is only for giving them the basic skills, so they can get immersed in our work from the very beginning and feel more part of our team.

A course can give you knowledge you didn't previously have, the basics of a skill but it will not make you a professional (to my standards) on completion. A wise man once said: 'repetition is knowledge, perfection is refinement of failures and iterations of success'. Which we could take that to mean experience.

Then again I've seen loads of experienced 'tilers' who are completely useless so they shouldn't all be revered so highly

I'm sure they'll be plenty who'll disagree with what I have said, but as my team of 16 staff are fully booked for well over a year with zero advertising and all from referrals, I'd like to think our way of doing things goes someway to prove a point.

Ta Frank.

Merry Christmas to one and all.

[user123]

How should you pick a tiler? Hmm, go for the good looking one with shorts on?

Seriously, is it not a matter to go for the honest one (by reputation or instinct?
I went on Darren's 4 day course and learnt heaps, loved every minute and would still recommend it as strongly as ever, just because what he teaches sticks in ones mind forever, but the experience to be able to call myself a tiler - as it does with anyone in the trade - would come in time if I wanted to be a tiler (I did this course to improve my knowledge with regards to my artistic mosaics, as most here know). However, I have come across a few tradesmen in my time who keep boasting about how many decades they have been in the field, are completely disinterested in what new materials and/or approaches are out there and too tight to experiment with, say, the new epoxies or sealers, and just pretend they know it all. Give me a 4 day course tiler who admits they are a beginner and probably will take a little longer, but will try his enthusiastic utmost to do a good job anytime, chances are, if he or she has a natural practical aptitude and sound intentions the result will be just fine. And who will know what will be a little too advanced and get a more experienced pal to give a hand or will be big enough to pass it on... that should not be difficult amongst the TF network here. We all see shocking tiling everywhere we go, not all has been done by novices, has it. Master craftsmen are pure joy to watch and have in the house, and the results do show... but there aren't enough about really, are there, so give me the honest one.

[Prem Tiler]

I totally agree with you time served tilers who strongly believe that the minimum a tiler should of trained for and worked alongside another more experienced tiler for is 36 months full time before being let lose on the paying public. Which I'm sure you will think is weird considering my background.

But I do think an individual should be judged on there own merit. There are the course trained among us who go above and beyond to make sure they go on to every job with as much ammo to complete the job to the highest standard possible.

Granted 'Joe Bloggs' who's been tiling for 30 years man and boy could go on to the job and do it without a second thought but Joe Bloggs was lucky enough to be taken under the wing of a mentor who was willing to train them.

(And before you jump down my necks I know you worked your nuts off on your apprenticships I'm just saying they aren't avalibale anymore not as many as they used to be)

If I could go back in time to when I was 16 I would probably still of joined the army rather than do an apprenticeship but I like to think I'm doing a good job of making up for lost ground. And I'm not alone.

What I'm trying to say in my usural long way round manor is it's much harder to categorise than we would all like it. And the NVQII assessments and as mentioned a step in the right direction.

Maybe we should make a petition to make operating without NVQII by 2011 illegal?

[davy_G]

Mmm,
I like the sentiment of needing a qualification to practice tiling.
I think the industry needs to regulate itself first, who should provide the regulation, i'd say this forum has the most tilers of any body in the UK?? (and further afield).
An NVQ however doesnt make you a good tiler either, im playing devils advocate here, just like a course teaches me the basics and how to do them correctly didnt make me good. Some of the guys soming off the same course as me couldnt tile and never will, its just not in them. You just keep learning as you go and the instinct to do a high class tidy job every time is either in you or not!
NVQII might be the way to go, but who is going to make it illegal, the government, who will police it? I can see it working on site work but then alot of tilers dont do too much. I cant see myself going back to the classroom, but you never know, if there where finincal incentives, like minimum pay etc then might be worthwhile.

[Prem Tiler]

I hear you Davy.

In Aus you need a licence to practice as a tiler in all states bar WA but that dont mean there are now 'cowboys' but what it dose mean is the customer is to blame if a bad job is done by an unlicensed tiler.

There must be a 1000 posts on here about poor jobs done by so called tilers and good members having to make them good. If those customers had taken on a tiler with no licence and got a bad job done it would be there own fault for not getting the right firm in.

Who would make it illegal? That would have to be the same people who are making it illegal to work on sites after 2010 without a cscs card.

[Tomtiler]

just would like to see what u guys think is best the courses you go on or just been out there working alongside an expericnd tiler picking it up with on site experience

[Prem Tiler]

just would like to see what u guys think is best the courses you go on or just been out there working alongside an expericnd tiler picking it up with on site experience

Not possiable to answer that without knowing the course and the tiler who is showing the ropes?

Course could be a pile of poo and so could the mentor.

[Tomtiler]

Not possiable to answer that without knowing the course and the tiler who is showing the ropes?

Course could be a pile of poo and so could the mentor.

say a full apprentiship course 4 yrs

and a top quality tiler

[Daz]

I'm a 4 week course tiler, although, I did have a strong grounding and training from my time served father. However, I have recently been contacted by two 4 week course tilers (independently) for help / assistance / work. I have "employed" both guys on separate occasions and received very differing performances.

It takes the right person to be able to gain sufficient knowledge to be able to "trade" as a tiler. It takes a lot more to be able to build a career as a tiler.

Courses and apprenticeships will only provide a guidance and knowledge. The individual will determine whether they will ever be able to call themselves a tiler.

[whitebeam]

just would like to see what u guys think is best the courses you go on or just been out there working alongside an expericnd tiler picking it up with on site experience

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[Diamond Pool Finishers]

going on what i read on this forum,IE bad workmanship reported by peeps something needs to be in place, but i have city & guilds and find nvqs & cscs all a bit patronizing

[whitebeam]

C&G's in what trade mate

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

plasterer, and we used to cover tiling as well because tiling never existed as a trade then, i believe painters/decorators also covered tiling

[Prem Tiler]

say a full apprenticeship course 4 yrs

and a top quality tiler

Ok so a 4 year apprenticeship with Tommyzoom. I would say without a shadow of doubt better than a 6 week course.

But you do need to take in to consideration the tiler needs to be able to teach as well as they tile.

I chose TZ because I'm sure every one will agree his work speaks for its self. But if he was no good at explaining what he is doing and how to replicate the art that is tile fixing it would be down to the apprentice to suck up his skills and turn them in to his own.

But still the hands on experience cant be bought any where so the apprenticeship would have to win hands down.

P.s ( I'm not at all saying TZ cant teach how to tile. I'm sure he is a master teacher as well as tiler)

[faithhealer]

How should you pick a tiler? Portfolio and references, customers don't know one qualification from another!

[Keith]

I certaintly agree that you can't learn in 4 days. I started off like that and have been learning non stop for two years by doing odd jobs and practicing . I would love to be properly trained in a college if that is the best way but I have to earn a buck now and again.Yes if the proffession was regulated then you could work to set prices which would be great,but feel it could never happen all the time we have a nanny state. If you could regulate, then the likes of Darren at N E training would probably have to pack the school in. And by the way, He knows what he's talking about. Also this Forum has been a godsend to me and long may it run. Thanks to everyone sharing their expertise . Merry christmas to you all.

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

people can make them up, take pics from other places and forge refs, i always dismiss the ref like Mr & Mrs parker said so&so is a great tiler,even on web sites i find it laughable

[Prem Tiler]

every referance should IMO be accompanyed with contact details of the customer. I have a few that are happy for new customers to go and have a look for them selfs although no one has ever taken me up on the offer.