Burying copper pipes

[Dean A]

Mornin'

There doesn't seem to be a great deal of information on this one - I am hoping this doesn't mean it can't be done!

I want to chase a small section of the lime/cement render currently on the walls to bury the towel rad 15mm pipes to give a clean finish.

The walls will be tiled with trav over the pipes.

My plan was to chase the walls, then cover pipes with PVC trunking prior to tiling over.

Has anyone buried copper pipes in solid walls, if so, do you have any tips?

[faithhealer]

You've covered the important bit Dean, don't let the mortar come into contact with the copper. Tha chasing bit is the hard slog, don't forget mask and glasses!

[Dean A]

Thanks Faithhealer. I suppose my only concern is the thermal expansion which could affect the tiles. There will be 1 90 deg bend on the pipe which is where I am stratching my head! I could use a tape of some sort (Duck tape) to wrap the pipe, but this would not protect the adhesive from expansion, where as the PVC trunking would...

[faithhealer]

Duct tape is fine as is insulation tape would be. Never heard of any concerns with expansion before

[mikethetile]

just seal it up so that its not in contact with any cement/lime based materials otherwise it will corode

your on the right track with taping and ducting

[wetdec]

Wrap them in insulation tape, no messing with trunking and stuff..........


..

[simhopper]

or use plastic coated copper tube

[Rob Z]

I've often wondered if copper used to be "better" or more pure, because we have demo'd many old bathrooms (70-80 years old) where the copper pipes for the sink, toilet, etc. were run right through the mud on the floor and the walls, and not a spec of corrosion or damage on the pipes. Nowadays, we do as everyone here suggests, and isolate the copper from the mortar.

There are a lot of problems around the US where newer copper installations (10-20 years old) are developing a lot of leaks, and everyone has a different theory as to why.

[lucius]

In Spain nearly all pipework is buried in the wall and secured with plaster of paris it has been proved over the years that this attacks the copper and destroys it i would say that would be the same for all gypsum and maybe lime products we now have plastic sleeve to protect the pipe, blue and red for identification mostlty though i use Hep20 in the wall far easier.
Lucius.

[Colour Republic]

I've often wondered if copper used to be "better" or more pure, because we have demo'd many old bathrooms (70-80 years old) where the copper pipes for the sink, toilet, etc. were run right through the mud on the floor and the walls, and not a spec of corrosion or damage on the pipes. Nowadays, we do as everyone here suggests, and isolate the copper from the mortar.

There are a lot of problems around the US where newer copper installations (10-20 years old) are developing a lot of leaks, and everyone has a different theory as to why.

Copper is getting thinner and is also a mix of metals today, I think there are 3 different grades of copper M,L & K? all of varying thickness... I have noticed since the price of copper went through the roof copper is getting thinner... this is why it's sometimres hard to guage price from one supplier to another

[strummerman]

as dave about his copper pipes

[Tubsy]

closure plate tape from a plumbers merchant is perfect for the job don't worry too much about thermal expansion done loads never had a problem, virgin copper is available but carries a premium price tag usually reserved for special bath tubs (healing properties)etc most of the copper we buy from merchants is recycled mixed with alloys. the different thickness's or guages are for use outside or inside (outside being thicker) although most now use poly.

[Frosty]

There is also plumbers felt wrapping you could use if your that worried about expansion.

It comes in a flat roll you wrap around the pipe in a spiral, or there is also a sleeve variety where you just slide the tube inside it.

Personally, I would just do it with duck tape or similar.

[Rob Z]

Copper is getting thinner and is also a mix of metals today, I think there are 3 different grades of copper M,L & K? all of varying thickness... I have noticed since the price of copper went through the roof copper is getting thinner... this is why it's sometimres hard to guage price from one supplier to another

CR, yes those are the grades we have...whenever possible, we use L copper. I have been told they use K copper in areas where well water is aggresive on the pipes.

[SirLurch]

depends on the layout but if you can solder on bench then give em coat of hammerite paint, let em dry overnite and then tape em, ive an old mate whos done that for as long as hamerites been arouns with no probs.
Belts and braces you could wrap em in fiberglass kit, maybe little expensive tho!

[doug boardley]

I'd chase them in, make sure they're clipped back and cover with duct/insulation tape. White spf for your trav and away you go!

[cornish_crofter]

Pretty much as Doug says really, use SPF as opposed to mortar/render.

However, for floors I use Denzo tape over the top and lay the pipes on some damp proof course wide enough to span the number of pipes. For a couple of pipes next to each other 4 inch should be enough, then the denzo tape will adhere to the pipes and the damp proof course. Then apply the spf over that.

[Swanseajack]

As Cornish, Denzo tape for me.

[bighen]

I use duct tape, fix the pipe back with 16mm clips and then foam the pipe in the wall. This insulates and allows for any movement in the pipe.
You do not want to mortar the pipes in as this over time corrodes the pipe and also can lead to joints cracking as there is no room for pipe movement.
Where the pipe passes through the tile, I diamond core through using a 365 bit and cap the pipe with a chrome rose.
Looks sweet

[Dean A]

Thanks all for the tips!

The walls are chased. I am having a hard time finding enough space to put pipe clips in though!

Also, should I be concerned by the 3 or 4 90 deg elbows behind the tiles in the wall - should there be any solder joints at all or am I asking for trouble?

A tad worried about this one, especially as its in the outside wall (OK its 2ft thick) - but if it leaks

[lucius]

Shouldnt be a problem as long as you test it all before you close it in.
Lucius.

[bighen]

There's no problems with solder joints. If you are using chrome plate pipe then you need to make sure that you scrape the chrome off back to the copper, otherwise the soldier joint will fail over time. You need to do this also if you use push fit pipe, as the fittings cannot bite through the plating resulting in the fitting blowing off under pressure. The other option is to use compression fittings.

Have fun

[Rob Z]

Dean,

I used to worry about things like this until I considered that there are zillions of fittings that get buried in inaccessible locations and never have problems. It's just a part of the business of construction that everything eventually has to be done as best it can without trying to make it perfect (then nothing would ever get built).

It's good that you are thinking about potential problems and are doing you best to eliminate them when possible.

[365drills]

Did the same when I laid 22mm copper pipe for gas.

We had an island in the middle of the kitchen and I used a poured latex floor for the kitchen.

To get the gas pipe over to the middle dug a trench and then laid out the 22mm copper pipe.

Soldered all joints.

Tested.

Wrapped joints in gas tape.

Wrapped pipe in duct tape.

Burried it.

Mixed up a mortar screed and laid it.

Later two guys came and finished the floor with an almost dry cement screed. And the the final coat of latex was poured over it all.

Been 4 years and no smell of gas....