Dot & Dab Quandry

[artfuldodger]

The story goes like this...

We have just had wall tiles fitted to our bathroom that is near completion following renovation by myself (former joiner) my partners father (plumber) and a friend of his who is a builder but came highly reccomended to fit the wall tiles. The tiles are 600 x 300 polished porcelain that the friend has gone and fitted with a dot & dab method. I kind of felt uneasy about this from the start but having been out of the building game for 15 years and considering the weight of the tiles (4kg) each I presumbed this must be common practice nowadays and the correct way of fixing.

Earlier today I was in my garage having a crafty cigarette when bordem lead me to read the back of the discarded tile adhesive packaging. No where did it reccommend dot & dab. Worried now I then went and checked on the walls, found a smallish cut tile say 8' square and with a small amount of force I easily pulled the sucker from the wall with hardly a mark left.

Now im even more worried...with 3 children one of them 2 years old should I confront the friend, try and pull them all off and try to refix on a combed bed of adhesive or was I just lucky to get this small tile from the wall and have nothing to worry about.

The tiles are floor to ceiling in some places, around the bath etc, are fixed to plasterboard walls, some bare and some painted with old emulsion.

Apart from giving up smoking

Your Thoughts appreciated

[pete f]

dot n dab is a no no method was the adhesive used cementitious ie mixed with water

[artfuldodger]

Mixed with water yes...does this make a difference??

[pete f]

no thats fine porcelbond as well why dot n dab are walls bad

[Daz]

What prep was done to the painted surfaces prior to tiling?
What type of adhesive was used? ready mixed or bagged?
Were the walls primed before tiling?

Regardless, dot 'n' dab is a big no no.

Tap the tiles with your knuckles, if you here hollow sounds, then don't let your kids near the bath! .

If I was you, I'd have word with your mate and suggest he takes a look on here before correcting his mistake at his cost.

[whitebeam]

Whatever addy it's still a no no

[doug boardley]

you have every right to be worried artful, don't put your kids at danger, remove the tiles, it doesn't matter at this stage wether it's powder or tubbed adhesive, the method is most definitely WRONG! Afterwards use a 10mm square notched trowel with a single part flexible adhesive

[CJ CERAMICS]

big no no

[spacer]

Shocking method of application. You should definately remove the tiles.

[sranners]

i wouldnt alow it mate, have a word with him see what he says, if they are all b & d take them down. feel sorry for you mate.

[artfuldodger]

The house is around seven years old with pretty plumb walls...I know I've fitted the furniture myself. On tapping the tiles most of them sound hollow, though would this just echo through from the hollow stud walls behind?
The adhesive was a bagged (powder) adhesive that he has mixed on site. One worrying thing my partner and I have done is look down one wall to another behind the line of tiles by pressing our faces to the wall. You can clearly see the other wall with no break for adhesive. He appears to have put little or none at all near to the edge of the tiles...

Btw ...all the comments and advice is greatly appreciated...Thanks

Nearly forgot regarding the prep work, I removed the old tiles and scraped the old ahesive off. very minor making good to do. Did he do anything else?? I dont think so but I havent done further than that.

[sranners]

its a real shame but its a pull down and do it again but wright, crazey that you can see the other wall through the tile,

sorry mate.

[whitebeam]

I would be phoning the guy who put them up as well

[Daz]

I'm sorry to say that it sounds like it all needs to come off and be done correctly.

In your situation I would definatley not let my children anywhere near those tiles.

You are going to get water ingress in the substrate as well as tiles landing on your head if you don't take action soon.

Next time, consider tanking and combing the adhesive with a 10mm notched trowel.

[doug boardley]

at least no physical harm has been done to your family mate. Get it rectified asap tho'

[hillhead]

This is just another case of builders and other tradesmen thinking they know all about the tiling trade and landing people in it,it happens all over unfortunately.

[Aztectiler]

Wow I really can't believe that this still goes on.
Makes you wonder how often it really happens cos we don't get to hear of them all.

At some stage building regs will be upon us and I for one would welcome it if it cleans up our business.

[artfuldodger]

I've just taken a picture of the cut tile that I pulled away..using a crayon ive marked the adhesive to wall contact points in red. Would that have held it in place in a steamy bathroom?

The second picture is of the gap from the wall that all the tiles have...a little excessive to account for the walls being out. You'll note that the adhesive is nowhere to be seen.

To clarify...I get the tiles off, prime with a suitable primer and do the job myself? Primer suggestions for bare and painted plasterboard please.

+ Could somebody please explain tanking?

[Aztectiler]

Bal bond as a primer for me.

Also tanking as follows:
Wetrooms and wet shower areas are becoming more and more popular. Wetroom waterproofing, or "tanking", fully seals the wetroom area prior to tiling. This contains any water that seeps between tiles, allowing it to drain down towards the wetroom floor drain. Wetrooms are normally thought of as shower areas, but many bathrooms, kitchens or toilet areas can also be treated in the same way. Installation of a wetroom drain at the lowest point, together with wetroom tanking, provides a continuous seal from walls and floor to the drain. This being a very attractive proposition for any wet area.

[artfuldodger]

Thanks everyone... I will post the outcome when I finally get it resolved. Just to clarify we hadnt fully finsihed the room and it hadnt been in use so the kids are safe and sound.. + thanks again for the technical help, Time for a beer me thinks

[graham31]

Thanks everyone... I will post the outcome when I finally get it resolved. Just to clarify we hadnt fully finsihed the room and it hadnt been in use so the kids are safe and sound.. + thanks again for the technical help, Time for a beer me thinks

Well deserved one i'd say.

Just follow the advice you've been givin and you'll be fine

[mikethetile]

dot and dab is a common method used by non tilers as it saves on addy and is easier to adjust when fixing

adhesive manufacturers reccomend min 70% coverage but most tilers work on 90% min

porcelain are dense and therefore heavier than biscuit and need a good purchase to the substrate

another advantage of 90% coverage is when you press the tile in you push the air out creating suction holding the tile where you placed it

youve been given sound advice on here

with care you will be able to remove all the tiles and clean them ready for reuse

score through the painted surfaces and then prime, dont just prime as the primer wont penetrate the paint and the paint may seperate from the wall dropping your tiles

good luck mate

its difficult when mates or family help out as you dont want to fall out with them but you really cant leave this and the sooner they are off the softer the addy

mike

ps i gave up smoking last week after 40 yrs , i can reccomend as ive got a new lease of life................still climbing the walls though

[doug boardley]

dot and dab is a common method used by non tilers as it saves on addy and is easier to adjust when fixing

adhesive manufacturers reccomend min 70% coverage but most tilers work on 90% min

porcelain are dense and therefore heavier than biscuit and need a good purchase to the substrate

another advantage of 90% coverage is when you press the tile in you push the air out creating suction holding the tile where you placed it

youve been given sound advice on here

with care you will be able to remove all the tiles and clean them ready for reuse

score through the painted surfaces and then prime, dont just prime as the primer wont penetrate the paint and the paint may seperate from the wall dropping your tiles

good luck mate

its difficult when mates or family help out as you dont want to fall out with them but you really cant leave this and the sooner they are off the softer the addy

mike

ps i gave up smoking last week after 40 yrs , i can reccomend as ive got a new lease of life................still climbing the walls though

stick with it Mike, I gave up 2 1/2 months ago, don't even think about it now!

[tile55]

Great advice Mikethetile, couldn't have put it better myself
Have one on me!

[lawrenso]

Deja Vu - except mine was a "Tiler" - supposedly!!!

I am having my tiles ripped out due to dodgy fixing (and also cr@p quality)

Good luck with it

Steve

[Brian.Evans]

Sounds dodgy m8 I would get them off the walls better safe han sorry!

[bigandy]

sorry to say you need to rip them off. but if they are coming off that easy you should be able save most of them and keep the costs down. re the painted wall i wold strongly suggest getting all the paint off. i use a 4"razor scraper, as i find this the fastest method.just make sure you prime and use a good quality flexible powdered addy(using a notched trowel of course).

[Rav daniels]

sorry to hear about your situation, hope it goes well, p.s. dont forget to seal the tiles befofe grouting,with them being polished porcelain,

[faceman]

I'm sad to say that I spent 2 days last week retiling a bathroom that echos similar circumstances to your own. They were the same tiles and were fixed with cement based adhesive, dot and dab on to emulsioned walls. The whole wall of tiles had dropped 3mm opening up a grout line basically resting on the bath held together by grout. They also failed in the shower where it wasn't painted. I re-prepped the walls by stripping all the paint left on the walls (the rest was on the tiles i removed), I then keyed the walls a lot to rough them up and then primed with SBR primer. I fixed them to the wall with a 10mm trowel then by spreading the wall and then the tile. I am pretty confident this will be enough. I cannot stress the importance of fixing porcelain solidly to walls, it is ridiculously heavy and possibly dangerous. Good luck