Help with leaky shower tray

[Franko]

I have just installed a new shower enclosure, and if I do say so myself it looks great; however, it continues to leak despite 3 attempts to seal the tiles/tray with sanitary silicone. Can anyone recommend a product that may help solve the leakage. I found a product called TeleSeal 10 on an internet search, but it doesn't seem to be available any more.

Luckily the bathroom is directly over the garage, so it's only the car that gets wet (saves washing it!).

[aflemi]

Silicone sealant should definitely do the job, if applied properly. Are you sure the leak is from the tray/walls join and not the waste trap?

[Franko]

Almost certain, the waste goes directly through the ceiling into the garage, so I would have thought that if the trap was leaking I'd see the evidence from water running down the pipework.

[aflemi]

Is it obviously leaking eg is there evidence after each use? It appears the base is easy to observe from below which is good so should be straightforward to identify. Is the shower tanked?
I would start with process of elimination bottom up.
1) pour water carefully into tray only so if it leaks it can only be from the waste. If not:
2) pour water copiously all round the bottom of the tray / wall join, if it leaks it's the silicone seal badly applied. If not it must be higher up, holes in grout etc, fittings cut into tiles and not sealed properly etc.

[Franko]

Will do, further investigation required. I'll let you know how I get on.

[oogabooga]

The tray/tile junction shouldn't be relying on silicone to keep it watertight. As suggested eliminate the waste as the culprit first. You can get an inflatable device from a plumbing supply that goes down the waste so you can fill the tray with water, but a party balloon would also do the trick.

[mikethetile]

check the mixer valve is sealed properly as water can find its way behind the valve

[Dave]

What type of tray have you...is it a resin type or plastic type etc..?

[cornish_crofter]

The tray/tile junction shouldn't be relying on silicone to keep it watertight. As suggested eliminate the waste as the culprit first. You can get an inflatable device from a plumbing supply that goes down the waste so you can fill the tray with water, but a party balloon would also do the trick.

How else would you expect to get it 100% watertight in this area?

I use 2 applications of silicone here plus a generous bead on the faces of the tray that are to go against the walls.

The first application is a bead between the walls and the tray, and the 2nd is between the tiles and the tray.

Agreed, the tiles should sit over the tray but without the silicone in place it can still leak.

[sranners]

have you thought about the water feed leeking, ie at the mixer. it may be the plumbing that is the problem not the tiling.

[oogabooga]

Cornish Crofter, simple...... the area should be tanked. The tanking should extend down into the tray so that any water that works it's way behind the grout ends up back in the tray. Common sense when you think about it - shame the building standard boffins don't have any (common sense that is)

[cornish_crofter]

Cornish Crofter, simple...... the area should be tanked. The tanking should extend down into the tray so that any water that works it's way behind the grout ends up back in the tray. Common sense when you think about it - shame the building standard boffins don't have any (common sense that is)

Thanks for that. I see where you're coming from but there are a few issues I would raise.

1) Not all customers will pay for tanking, a bone of contention I know, but that's a fact. As leatherface and others have said, if we turned down all the jobs where tanking was not 'required' we would have much less work than we do at the moment.

2) There are some products that don't actually supplementary tanking. Wedi Board is one. This product, unlike Hardibacker actually stops water ingress as opposed to simply holding together in the event of immersion. using this product is, as I understand as good as tanking any other product.

3) There are several tanking systems on the market. Some are effectively painted on. Some will present issues with being adhered onto the tray, even only under the tiles.

4) A good silicone seal between the wall and the tray is IMO far more likely to adhere to both surfaces (mainly the shower tray) than a tanking membrane using SPF or similar. Silicone is an excellent sealer for this application, and although I may well use a tanking membrane on a shower wall if tiling straight onto plasterboard or the like and lip it under the tiles, I wouldn't abandon my silicone seals. One when fitting the tray and the second when fitting the tiles.

[aflemi]

Thanks for that. I see where you're coming from but there are a few issues I would raise.

1) Not all customers will pay for tanking, a bone of contention I know, but that's a fact. As leatherface and others have said, if we turned down all the jobs where tanking was not 'required' we would have much less work than we do at the moment.

I agree, it appears most showers are not tanked. The poster has not answered yet whether the one in question is tanked or not.
In any case, a noticable leak would not happen just because it is not tanked, there needs to be gaps in the grout/seal/fittings to allow a noticable quantity of water to escape from the tiled walls/base.
If the shower walls etc were secure, the water ingress through the grout, adhesive would not be sufficient enough to leak below, the problem must lie within the suggestions above, including plumbing leaks (that can be checked by running the shower for several minutes, point the showerhead in to a bucket so no water goes near the tiles, base or waste.

[oogabooga]

Cornish Crofter,

1. Understand that I never suggested people should turn down those jobs, you gotta do what you gotta do I suppose. Tanking however should be mandatory in new builds and renovations. There must be a huge number of leaky showers out there slowly rotting away simply because no tanking was stipulated. I'm not saying tanking will solve all, but would be ginormous step in the right direction. British standards are way behind many other countries in this regard and certainly don't deserve defending in this instance.

2. Never used Wedi, I'd be tempted to reinforce the joins with a liquid membrane though.

3. I use liquid and sheet membranes and don't have a problem adhering to the the tray. The sheet membrane runs down the wall onto the tray upstand/flange and with the liquid membrane reinforcing mesh is applied over the junction. Seems a non-issue to me.

4. You've obviously developed a system you believe works for you, however the double silicone technique won't necessarily stop water penetrating the grout and getting behind the silicone. Guess it depends what substrate your tiling over, how much use the shower gets, and maybe a few fingers crossed.

If you haven't noticed I'm rather keen on tanking

[cornish_crofter]

Fair comment.

I can agree with you on 4 though. I had an issue a while ago with a shower leaking behind the tiles through the grout. It was mainly down to poor tiling and grouting. I fixed it and solved the leak. I removed the frame and replaced some of the tiles. Tanking membrane would have protected against poor workmanship.

Normally I would tank as well now. Until recently I never really considered it. When I installed a wetroom I was fairly keen on doing it but the client didn't want to pay the extra.

To be fair to him, there were plastered concrete walls either side and the rear wall put in my me used aqua panel. The corners and join were sealed with waterproof tape and the whole lot was primed with SBR. He was only having a gravity fed mixer, not the 3 bar shower panels he had upstairs!

[sranners]

Hi all, as above if the shower is just gravity or mains fed then i do offer tanking but i dont feel that it is a must if the job is done to a hight standard, on the other hand if there is plaster board there i 9 times out of 10 cut out and replace with a hardie backer or a board of the same tipe.

i mastic my shower trays to the wall so it squeezes out the top when i push it against the walls. (befor tiling)

one more thing!!!!! i have fixed a leak for a customer that showed in the sealing at one end of the house but started at the other, the water ran the lenght of a shower waste in another on suit.

have a good one