Contaminated tiles.

[jaycee1]

I have posted before on the problems I have had with a tiling job but my battle with the tiler is ongoing. I had 37 sq metres of porcelein tiles put down onto a screeded floor with piped underfloor heating. Efflouressence was seen almost as soon as the grout dried, then the grout began to crack and we noticed quite a lot of the tiles were not stuck down properly. A tile was removed and report from the adhesive company (bal, requested by the tiler) indicated that there was insufficient adhesive contact with the tile surface and nonflexible grout had been used. The tiler says he used flexible grout and he is now trying to say the back of the tiles were contaminated with dust, he took them straight out of the box they were delivered in. My view regarding the so called dust is that if there was anything on the back of the tile surely it would be his responsibility to remove it before he laid it particularly as some of the tile had to be cut. I think he used a dry cutter. I have read the excellent post about pricing and I have to say I paid a lot of money to have what I thought was going to be a professional job done nowhere did I try to cut corners. He has offered to relay the tiles but he expects us to pay for new ones.

[oldgit]

a couple of points what notch trowel was usedd,to be honest you would really have to scrimp for the depth of addy to be a problem as bad as you describe the grout may be well be flexible but if the heating was on to soon and to high or was never run up to full power and allowed to cool prior to tiling this could well be the problem.porcelain doesnt normally suffer from dusty backs of tiles sometimes you will get a white layer like chalk but this will only be on the ridged points on the backs and would only stop a minimal amount of non adhesion.
is there any possibilty that this was a Anhydrite screed as this may be the problem.

[jaycee1]

Thankyou for you prompt reply.I dont know what notch trowel was used but I do know that on the tile that was removed only one side was really stuck down the other side just lifted up. Flexible adhesive was used but the adhesive company are adamant that it was non flexible grout. The heating had been turned on a few weeks before the tiles were laid. Nobody gave us any specific advice about turning the heating on after the tiles were laid but we left it about 4 days before we turned the heating back on.

[oldgit]

4 days can be too soon you should bring the floor heat up gradually 5 degrees a day or something like that after at least a week and probably 2 weeks (im no expert on this),is the grout pulling away from the edges of the tile or generally cracking up.
on a flat floor and good porcelain even a 6mm trowel would have worked (not saying this is what i would use or do) it sounds like the screed is uneven.
how big are the tiles?
what do you know about the screed ie could it be Anhydrite screed it may be worth finding out,was it pumped in or knocked up on site in a mixer this may give an indication.
flexible grout will not compensate if the underfloor heating has been used too soon or too high to soon.
pop some pictures on here if you can.
you must remember despite what others might tell you bal or any other addy firm will wriggle where they can,there will not admit fault unless they have to.
Efflorescencebeing one issue bal dont seem to take any responsibility for.
personally i think your heating may be the problem,although the tiler may or may not have followed the rules as well.

[jaycee1]

We did have concerns about the screed as we couldnt initially confirm the depth but the screeder who was a subcontractor of the builder came out and assured us the correct amount was put down We also had a rep from Tarmac who had supplied the screed visit ( it wasnt mixed on site) and we were given the same reassurance, particularly we were told as the type of screed laid was truscreed. The screeder did say that the tiler should have used ditra matting as a safeguard with underfloor heating. Tiles are 90 x 45 cms. In a couple of areas the tiles cracked but there had been a crack in the screed the tiler said he was happy to tile over that if the builder said it was alright which he did. Those cracks have since been repaired with epoxyresin and havn't reopened. The grout is pulling away from the sides of the tiles and it is in those areas where the tiles seem to be coming away from the floor. If the heating was to be a problem surely the tiler should have alerted us to that as he knew the builder was no longer on site. If the screed was uneven, again shouldn't the tiler have been aware of that as he was laying them. We paid this man £40 per sq metre to lay these tiles and he seems to be shrugging of any responsibility. Since we had these problems I have learnt a lot and wouldn't have things done the same way but surely that is what you pay a professional for.
When the tiler was attempting to take up one of the tiles for analysis he was bashing like hell on the floor, he had been trying to say the floor was cracking undeneath the tile and it seemed he was trying to ensure if there wasnt one before he started taking the tile up there definately would be one when he finished which there wasnt ! He has since had to admit that there are no more cracks and the screed is stable.

[oldgit]

BIG tiles should be solid bed according to bal and others although i believe this to be just away of selling more adhesive in most situations,yours should be solid bed.
was the screed very white when it dried?
can you tell exactly how far down the pipes are?
its not really the tilers responsibility to tell you when and how to use the heating thats down to the builder.
where the adhesive has not stuck has the tiles not touched the adhesive or has it squeezed it flat but not stuck.
was the heating off when the tiling was done?
there could be more than one person at fault here,the tiler builder the screed and yourself by not following the heating instructions.
the tile could well be bowed this is common in long tiles,but that the tilers problem.
im guessing there laid brickbond which really does cause problems with bowed tiles.
you are going to have to take the floor up so i would make a start and take plenty of pictures.
i feel that that everyone is going to blame everyone else,but it maybe and probably is a mix of problems,even if the tiling was 100% right you may still have had problems.
take half the floor up and go from there.
jaycee you have since edited so some of my points may be already covered

[jaycee1]

It wasnt solid bed. The screed was greyish with bits in , supposedly extra toughened. We believe the screed depth was about 58 cms and I have phoned numerous underfloor heating companies who assure me this is adequate with tuf screed. the adhesive looked to be in lines with gaps of 1-2 cms. heating was off when the tiling was done. The tiles are as flat as pancakes. We werent given any instructions regarding the underfloor heating and tiling other than being told by the tiler the adhesive was fast setting and we didn't turn on the heating for 4 days. Again knowing what I know now a tiler should offer advice about the heating in relation to the job he has just done. Im not sure what you mean by brickbond but these tiles were just laid in straight lines side by side. As I say we had paid the professionals a lot of money and hind sight is a wonderful thing. This tiler was accompanied by his son the job took about 4 half days he would arrive , do about half a day then go off. My mistake was paying up promptly and being too trusting.

[jaycee1]

Sorry about the editing, I missed answering some of you questions Thankyou for your help though.

[oldgit]

the trowel sounds like a trowel i used (2cm gap)when leaving school 30+ years ago nowhere near enough cover imo.
it really is not the tiler who should tell you about the heating, though they may offer advice but all heating companies will state different advice on a tile that big with the correct bed i would say 2 weeks.
what was the time between tiling and the screed being laid,this can vary depending who tells you but 1cm per week is what many will state.
the heating prior to tiling should be brought up to full heat over the course of a week then kept on full for a few days and then back down over a week,this will difer depending who you ask.
4 half days does seem a bit quick,those tiles are never easy as very few floors are that flat.

[Sir Ramic]

As far as i can see Truscreed is not an anhydrite screed.
I agree that Ditra or similar should have been used but its not always the case. I would use it but i am a belt and braces man.
The heating should IMO be left off for 2 weeks after the floor was completed and then raised in temp by no more than 4 degrees a day. Those are my rules and what i always tell my clients.
As for dust i would say that it was the tilers job to make sure there was no dust on the backs. I would have given those size tiles a back buttering of adhesive myself.
If he is admitting there was dust then why didnt he do something about it at the time ?

[jaycee1]

Thanks Sir Ramic. The report from the adhesive company indicated 60% adhesive cover and as you say OG they recommend a solid bed of adhesive. As for the contamination we feel the tiler is clutching at straws but of course if seen he should have cleaned it off. Isnt dust created when tiles are cut anyway?. The screed had been laid about 6 months earlier and the heating had been brought up to heat about 4 weeks prior to the tiles being laid. If we had been advised about the gradual increase in temp of the heating following tiling we would have followed that. We left it off for 4 days, If I remember correctly the tiler said it would be Ok once the adhesive had set and that would be within 24 hrs, we gave it longer. Hopefully our experience may help others who read this. I really dont think our tiler had experience with piped underfloor heating or large tiles but I wish he had said.

[Sir Ramic]

Then you have the adhesive companies findings to throw at the tiler plus teh fact that if he knew about the dust then he should have cleaned it off. As for creating dust when cutting ! Maybe but not all tiles were cut and therefore it doesnt seem a factor.

I cant see you getting anywhere with the tiler other that going to court actually but i hope it doesnt come to that.

[jaycee1]

I think the contamination issue is a red herring. He says he will put things in the hands of his insurance company but I have spoken to them and get the feeling they will do all they can to avoid paying up. I can but hope. To get a report from the Tilers Association costs about £750!! You live and learn.

[Dave]

Hi karen...not sounding good for a result with your tiler is it...


If a tiler is taking on a job that has any kind of under tile heating he should know what to do or at least read up on it...You do not take a job on and not know what you are dealing with, how can a tiler give a guarantee on a job he has no knowledge of..

IMO he was out of his depth on the advice to give on the commision time for the under tile heating restart time and how the customer should go about this start up.

As for dust on the back of the tiles...lol lol....He should be back skimming to fill the tile back profile and to get better coverage on a tile that size..this ensures the tile and tile bed make full contact ( on a flat floor)...This is the way i do it anyway and it always gives a better coverage.....

Also maybe his adhesive was to dry or not correct depth to get the best coverage..

He is never going to admit it anyway.....so time to move on, either try to get your money back via the legal route or employ another fixer who knows what he is doing...

I got your pm earlier and if you want me to find a tiler for you i can....just pm me to let me know...


good luck karen, you deserve it after this turmoil...

[oldgit]

I think the contamination issue is a red herring. He says he will put things in the hands of his insurance company but I have spoken to them and get the feeling they will do all they can to avoid paying up. I can but hope. To get a report from the Tilers Association costs about £750!! You live and learn.

i dont believe insurance pays out for shody work.

[jaycee1]

Thanks Dave, I think you have hit the nail on the head , he was out of his depth for the job, surely that renders his guarantee, clearly stated on his business card, useless. I wouldn't pay out if I was insuring him. I reckon we will struggle, I will keep you posted!