Help!: Advice Regarding Tiling Job

[agrippa]

Please could anybody offer me some advice.

In my kitchen I have a floating floor constructed of 22mm thick chipboard. Porcelain tiles measuring 400mmx400mm were laid directly ontop of the floor using BAL Fastflex adhesive. There is movement in the floor and the tiles began to click and the grout began to crack. I have had advice from a tiler I have used before and he stated that plywood should be attatched to the floor using an adhesive and be screwed down every six inches. This has now been done and the floor is strong and the tiles are affixed perfectly.

However the original kitchen fitter is taking me to court after attempting to fix the problem. His reasons are that I supplied the grout Mapei Ultracolour and that due to the movement in the floor, which he could not have been aware of, the grout has cracked and the tiles are clicked.

[doug boardley]

a floating floor should never be tiled imo, and i'm sure there's gonna be a few more who'll agree

[Leatherface]

Hi, do not quite understand ?
Did the Kitchen fitter do tiling ? Was it his tiler ? Why is he taking you to court ?
Or was he trying to rectify someone elses mistake ?
Floor really should have been over boarded with ply, cement board or ditra mat prior to tiling.

[Leatherface]

a floating floor should never be tiled imo, and i'm sure there's gonna be a few more who'll agree

guess I am wrong then, have done a few, but over boarded or used ditra.
Am I wrong ?

[agrippa]

Quoted £12500 for kitchen. Paid three instalments of £9375 but due to the problems with the floor I withheld the final payment. I sought best advice from the tiler who has completed the job perfectly. There are other items that have not been complted and because the original kitchen company does not accept it has done anything wrong we cannot agrre on settling the bill. He is therefore taking me to court. The kitchen company used their own tiler.

[doug boardley]

I'd say so Nick, the ditra will just look after the lateral displacement not the vertical displacement

[Dave]

To tile a timber floor it has to have minimal to zero deflection.....A floating floor cannot offer you this....

The floor has no fixings at all holding it down , hence floating.

You cannot guarantee that it is deflection free in all area's and imo should never be tiled.

And if he was a tiler he would know at least some sort of overlay would be needed even if a tile installation was to commence on it...

As for taking you to court, tell him to go for it....if that floor has deflection then no adhesive/grout manufacturer would back him....

[doug boardley]

overboarding also will not alleviate the vertical displacement, it'll still be like walking on a trampoline ( granted, albeit not qite as springy!)

[agrippa]

Is their a tilers bible that quotes best practice when tiling wooden or floating floors???

[Dave]

Bs 5385.....

[Leatherface]

Ok, glad to know that, about the ditra, no comebacks so far, have done 2 this way, for kitchen company, they supplied matting, used kerraqick and Latex. Was not much apparent vertical displacement on floors.

My own jobs have over boarded with 12mm ply. Did 30 sq m job 3 years ago in slate, over boarded with 12mm ply,again tiled with kerraquick and latex, still as good as new, friend of the wifes !

[agrippa]

Thank you everyone. I will consult BS 5385 and go and prepare my defence.

[Dave]

You need bs 5385 section 3.....




this will help as well..


http://www.wpif.org.uk/publications/CodeofPractice1.pdf


paragraph 15 section 8.2.....

8.2 Ceramic Tiling
Tiling onto floating timber bases is not recommended.

[doug boardley]

Ok, glad to know that, about the ditra, no comebacks so far, have done 2 this way, for kitchen company, they supplied matting, used kerraqick and Latex. Was not much apparent vertical displacement on floors.

My own jobs have over boarded with 12mm ply. Did 30 sq m job 3 years ago in slate, over boarded with 12mm ply,again tiled with kerraquick and latex, still as good as new, friend of the wifes !

you've been lucky Nick, but you only have to be unlucky once to cost both money and reputation, I'm in it for the log haul so I do what I know and been taught to be the best methods.

[Leatherface]

Sorry for any duff info. Have listened and learned.
Why you think the floors I have done this way are still ok ?
Luck ?
Other reason ?

[Dave]

Luck.......not all floors are the same......but we cannot advise peeps to tile a floor that in practicle theory should not be tiled...

Floating floors are un-predictable and a tilers worst nightmare when they go wrong...

[Leatherface]

you've been lucky Nick, but you only have to be unlucky once to cost both money and reputation, I'm in it for the log haul so I do what I know and been taught to be the best methods.

Thanks Doug, will take on board, still learning. After all that is what the Forum is for.
Will not be doing again. Trouble is we can also "learn" wrong methods off other "experienced" tilers. Does get confusing , this BS advice, especially when I regularily work with a guy who has been tiling 25 years, apprentice trained and he over boards all his floating floor jobs and has never had one lift or crack yet.

[doug boardley]

Sorry for any duff info. Have listened and learned.
Why you think the floors I have done this way are still ok ?
Luck ?
Other reason ?

how long since you done them Nick, sometimes things settle down and are ok, but imo I'd not risk it and do 'em in the first place, tenting tiles must be a horrible sight!

[Dave]

Doesn't matter how long he has been tiling, could have been 40 yrs...doesn't say he is doing it right dose it..?



You have a look through any adhesive manufacturers pdf's etc on their adhesives and none will say to tile to any floating floor unless it has virtually zero deflection...

So if you cannot guarantee that then they should not be tiled.IMO.

[Leatherface]

Oldest one 3 years !
Slate, 12MM PLY, screwed down, kerraquick & latex addy.

[doug boardley]

Thanks Doug, will take on board, still learning. After all that is what the Forum is for.
Will not be doing again. Trouble is we can also "learn" wrong methods off other "experienced" tilers. Does get confusing , this BS advice, especially when I regularily work with a guy who has been tiling 25 years, apprentice trained and he over boards all his floating floor jobs and has never had one lift or crack yet.

certainly don't want to disrespect your friend Nick, but are you sure they've been floating floors that he's tiled? he may strike lucky with one or two where there's minimal deflection, but I doubt to the point of swearing on my boys' lives that he'd get away wit it on a regular,time lapsed period

[Leatherface]

[/I][/B]
certainly don't want to disrespect your friend Nick, but are you sure they've been floating floors that he's tiled? he may strike lucky with one or two where there's minimal deflection, but I doubt to the point of swearing on my boys' lives that he'd not get away wit it on a regular,time lapsed period

Perhaps he may not have been telling the full truth, but as a relitavely new tiler only 4 years I trusted the advice of a guy who has been doing it a lot longer than me, any comebacks I will rectify at my own cost,But at least now I have learned something from this thread. We all have to learn, sometimes this can be the hard way. Hopefully this will not be the case, will walk away from floating floor jobs in the future.
Thanks

[doug boardley]

you know it makes sense!

[doug boardley]

forums are a great source of learning, where I'm from we tend to get stuck in our ways, I'm unlearning to re learn Nick (if that makes sense) and although the forum can't teach you the practical hand skills to do the job, it can teach you, through discussion, that you don't have to do the job twice.

[Terry-La-Tiler]

Nice one guys, great thread and as a novice, I learned some extremely valuable information reading it.

And good luck to you Agrippa, hopefully they'll back down before it goes too far and save you the stress.

T.