Help!: Remedies for tiling job gone wrong.....?

[Mary]

Hello,

I am new here and just a member of the public, not a tiler. I had an expensive tiling job go wrong and I would really appreciate the advice of any experienced tilers for the best remedies.

A tiler installed a tiled floor for me. On his advice I chose the large 60x60cm porcelain tiles in plain cream and gloss finish. Also on his advice I went for an electric underfloor heating mat. He didn’t come cheap, in fact he was top end but had him recommended and saw one of his jobs.

After he and his team installed the plywood subfloor and heating mat, to my surprise he sent a subbie to do the tiling job. The subbie rushed the job through in a day although I later learned he was paid for 2 days. Worse still the subbie failed to supervise his labourer properly. The result was that the labourer prised out the tile spacers from the dried grout with the wrong sort of tool and chipped a lot of tiles at the edges. Also the holes drilled for the radiator pipes are very off centred and won’t be fully hidden by decorative caps. Also the wooden subfloor is still visible all around the perimeter of the room.

The damage is very visible particularly as it is a gloss floor.

When the tiler came to inspect the job he was far from pleased with the end result and said so. He has offered to replace the worst affected tiles by breaking them out and replacing them and to make his subbie pay for the replacement tiles. He has offered to dig out the grout around the radiator pipes and fill the visible part with epoxy. He was surprised the subbie had so many packs of tile adhesive left over as he was supposed to use them all but said the perimeter could be hidden with skirting boards. I’m afraid any hollows underneath may cause tiles to crack.

Naturally, I am concerned that the underfloor heating mat might get damaged. And I paid top end and wanted a good job.

Shouldn’t the subfloor be completely sealed off with adhesive followed by grout?

Are the tiler’s suggestions reasonable or is there a better alternative?

Thank you.

Mary

[Dave]

Hello mary...sorry to hear of your dilemma...have you got any pics you can show us..?..you can attach these in a reply using the manage attchments tab ..

[wetdec]

Forget the questions, you paid for a job you have not received.

At this point before opening your mouth to the contractor register this work as a problem with trading standards so your back is covered from the outset. Get your camera out and detail everything.................

Approach the main contractor who gave the price and invoiced you saying you want the job re-doing, not bits here and there all of it from scratch.

There is no room for if's and but's, you saw his work took a recomendation and he has not delivered.

Harsh but honest............


..

[beanz]

When you say the sub floor is visible around the edges, are we talking about a 10mm gap left for expansion? Should be Siliconed really, but if you are putting Skirting on it may not really be necessary, although certainly preferable.

I agree with wetdec about photographing everything, and retiling from scratch. Not sure you need to go down the Trading Standards route yet, but like he says, can't hurt to cover your back.

[Leatherface]

If you speak to Trading Standards, they will put you in touch with a qualified asessor, who will come out and inspect the job and give you a detailed written report on faults and remedial action, this will cost you, this can be used as part of any small claims court action. he should put the job right at his own cost or refund your money in full. I am also surprised that you paid in full if job was not right ! Any photos would be appreciated. It is highly unlikely that he will be able to lift and replace selected tiles without damaging the under floor heating mat, unless he has put a good layer of self levelling compound over prior to tiling.
Job is very likely going to have to be re-done

Sorry to hear about your plight, we will assist as much as possible.

[david campbell]

would defo ask him to lift the whole floor and re-do,especially after the tiler saying there was too much adhesive left!

[wetdec]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying march him into court with the trading standards I'm saying register a report so you have it to fall back on if need be....


..

[Leatherface]

Trading Standards are very helpful, four and a half years ago before I started tiling I had the misfortune of getting a tiler who advertised as a "Slate Specialist" to tile my kitchen and hall floors , even although I was not a tiler at the time I knew that the job was not good by any standards....

Shocking spacing.
Shocking setting out and cutting,
Grout not cleaned off properly, leaving grout in ridges
Grout mixed too thin causing slumping.

Did not pay him and asked him to lift all tiles, provide new and re lay to an acceptable standard.... he declined. After receiving a number of threatening letters I went to Trading Standards who put me in touch with a highly qualified building inspector. he came to house to inspect job and wrote a written report for me, which I forwarded a copy of to the tiler, threatening to take him to court ( did not bother at the end ) but heard no more from him after.
Tiles still down as I have not got round to replacing yet, will post photos on rogues gallery when i get a mo'

[LM Ceramics]

not right that the tiler who you employed to work on your property has passed the on to a sub contractor who in this instance sounds like they did a very poor job i agree the lot will have to be ripped out replace the odd few with ufh installed you re likely to damage it

as said before it can take years to build a good repuation one bad job can destroy you i hope this tiler has learned his lesson and chooses carefully to whom he takes on in future

[Uheat]

If you speak to Trading Standards, they will put you in touch with a qualified asessor, who will come out and inspect the job and give you a detailed written report on faults and remedial action, this will cost you, this can be used as part of any small claims court action. he should put the job right at his own cost or refund your money in full. I am also surprised that you paid in full if job was not right ! Any photos would be appreciated. It is highly unlikely that he will be able to lift and replace selected tiles without damaging the under floor heating mat, unless he has put a good layer of self levelling compound over prior to tiling.
Job is very likely going to have to be re-done

Sorry to hear about your plight, we will assist as much as possible.

I agree with Nick. Do you know whether a self levelling compound was used?

If it was me i would be ensuring the job was completely redone. However, if it is only to be repaired i would suggest putting a cable monitor onto the UFH while the faulty tiles are being lifted. This way if the cable gets damaged you should know roughly where the problem is and get an appropriate repair kit.
Although this will warn you of any breaks in the cable it will not tell you if the cable gets stretched which could cause problems later on.

Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks

[tile55]

Sorry to hear of your plight, it would appear that the so called subbie tiler did not lay the tiles properly in the first place, imo the floor would need to be redone at no cost to yourself.
Talk to the tiler and discuss what needs to be done, detail times, dates and make a written report about the next course of action take lots of pictures.

[Colour Republic]

I would think it's a little early to get Trading Standards involved, the contractor is clearly not impressed with the standard of work and has not shied away from his responsibilities, and has offered to rectify. It's very hard to pass judgement without seeing photo's but from what you describe he is offering to do the minimum of remedial work. If you are not happy with his suggestions then you don't have to accept it, Tell him what you would like done, If it really means that the whole floor has to come up then tell him so. If he refuses then you would have to get an independent inspector involved. I'm sure you could work this out with the contractor; it would certainly be a lot quicker than getting trading standards involved.

In the building trade you get what you pay for and it in this instance it sounds as if you didn't. There are many ways you could go about this but the most important factor is that you get the floor you always wanted.

Can I ask how big the floor is?

[Mary]

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies.

A couple of things I should clarify. Part of the floor was concrete and part was floorboards. My builder had secured the floorboards with screws. The tiler screwed 9mm plywood over the whole area. This is what I mean by "subfloor" he created. No screed or levelling was used. I was advised by the tiler it would be too thick, lead to too much drop to the hall, take too long to dry, cost too much, be unnecessary.

The tiler laid the heating mat on top, with the plastic mesh sometimes on top, sometimes underneath the wire coils, depending on how he made the turns. He said it didn't matter. Is that right? He didn't unpeel the sticky tapes to stick it down, just used a staple gun through the plastic mesh. He said it is the norm in the trade as it is quicker and more secure for tiling over. Could the metal staples cause electrical interference with the mat?

Then the subbie tiled on top using flexible adhesive. The laying out is good because the tiler told the subbie where to start and how to lay out. The spacing is acceptable.

When the subbie finished he didn't clean the floor. When I removed this chalky layer I saw the chipping damage.

As I said, the tiler was far from pleased with the outcome. He also said the floor should have been cleaned up for the customer- that is the standard they work to.

I bought more sq.m than he asked me to so I would have spares. But the subbie had only a basic tiler cutter and often did not score full length and snapped badly so there was a lot of wastage.

The tiler regretted not leaving his subbie a decent cutter for the porcelain. The tiler suggested the remedy of removing and replacing the worst tiles. He said he would supervise the subbie (and start on another job in my house) but I wanted him to do it personally because I am worried about damage to the underfloor heating mat. I won't give him the other job until he resolves this first!

I can see the plywood subfloor around the perimeter of the room. The gap is wide enough for me to just get my finger and feel under the edge of the tiles. Sometimes I feel adhesive but sometimes it is hollow. This is what I want filling. Am I right? It is a kitchen and appliances could leak and ruin the exposed ply.

The tiler left some of his tools at my place so I assumed he intended to return but he has allowed weeks to pass. He is not returning my calls! I am losing my patience. My OH is living away because of contract work and has not involved himself but just says be nice be reasonable and you will get it resolved. I don't relly want to involve Trading Standards. But I'm thinking of getting a fireman mate in for support. Is it unproductive to be nice to tilers?!

Mary

[doug boardley]

as we always ask in here Mary, any chance of some photies please? ps being nice to tilers isn't usually counter productive lol!

[Colour Republic]

The tiler suggested the remedy of removing and replacing the worst tiles. He said he would supervise the subbie (and start on another job in my house) but I wanted him to do it personally because I am worried about damage to the underfloor heating mat. I won't give him the other job until he resolves this first!

I think you should be nice but maybe your not being firm enough, I don't think he realizes how upset you are with the finish if he is even suggesting to have his subbie repair the work.

Quite right, I wouldn't let him start another job unless you are happy with the first.

[Uheat]

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies.

A couple of things I should clarify. Part of the floor was concrete and part was floorboards. My builder had secured the floorboards with screws. The tiler screwed 9mm plywood over the whole area. This is what I mean by "subfloor" he created. No screed or levelling was used. I was advised by the tiler it would be too thick, lead to too much drop to the hall, take too long to dry, cost too much, be unnecessary.

The tiler laid the heating mat on top, with the plastic mesh sometimes on top, sometimes underneath the wire coils, depending on how he made the turns. He said it didn't matter. Is that right? He didn't unpeel the sticky tapes to stick it down, just used a staple gun through the plastic mesh. He said it is the norm in the trade as it is quicker and more secure for tiling over. Could the metal staples cause electrical interference with the mat?

Then the subbie tiled on top using flexible adhesive. The laying out is good because the tiler told the subbie where to start and how to lay out. The spacing is acceptable.

When the subbie finished he didn't clean the floor. When I removed this chalky layer I saw the chipping damage.

As I said, the tiler was far from pleased with the outcome. He also said the floor should have been cleaned up for the customer- that is the standard they work to.

I bought more sq.m than he asked me to so I would have spares. But the subbie had only a basic tiler cutter and often did not score full length and snapped badly so there was a lot of wastage.

The tiler regretted not leaving his subbie a decent cutter for the porcelain. The tiler suggested the remedy of removing and replacing the worst tiles. He said he would supervise the subbie (and start on another job in my house) but I wanted him to do it personally because I am worried about damage to the underfloor heating mat. I won't give him the other job until he resolves this first!

I can see the plywood subfloor around the perimeter of the room. The gap is wide enough for me to just get my finger and feel under the edge of the tiles. Sometimes I feel adhesive but sometimes it is hollow. This is what I want filling. Am I right? It is a kitchen and appliances could leak and ruin the exposed ply.

The tiler left some of his tools at my place so I assumed he intended to return but he has allowed weeks to pass. He is not returning my calls! I am losing my patience. My OH is living away because of contract work and has not involved himself but just says be nice be reasonable and you will get it resolved. I don't relly want to involve Trading Standards. But I'm thinking of getting a fireman mate in for support. Is it unproductive to be nice to tilers?!

Mary

Hi Mary,

The The Tiler was fine to lay the mat with the mesh on top or underneath the cables as this is how you can achieve some shapes on the floor.

Using a Staple gun is NOT the norm and would not recommend using this fixing method as you could potentially compress the cable and alter the characteristics of the cable and causing hot spots on the cable. This may not show to start with but over time could cause the cable to burn out.

If he did not like the mats fixing strips then the norm would be 'gaffa' tape around the edge of the mat or using a glue gun to fix down.

Please see the following link Cable tacker

Hope this helps. If you have any other questions please ask

[beanz]

Using a Staple gun is NOT the norm and would not recommend using this fixing method as you could potentially compress the cable and alter the characteristics of the cable and causing hot spots on the cable. This may not show to start with but over time could cause the cable to burn out.

I'm not sure how stapling the mesh would compress the cable, although if he actually stapled over the cable itself, you'd have problems. Having never fitted UFH i could well be wrong though.

Mary, the fact that he's not answering your calls now should be reason enough to involve Trading Standards imo. And as for letting him loose on another job in your house... You'd have to be mad!

[Mary]

Thank you all again for your very helpful replies.

I haven't managed to post the photos here yet but I am trying.

You asked about the floor area. It is 22 sq.m. The tiler told me to order 23 sq.m of tiles. But I got 24 sq.m to have spares for future repairs. The subbie used all the tiles because he broke a number when scoring and snapping badly.

The amount of flexible tile adhesive the tiler got was 13 sacks and the amount the subbie used was 9.5 bags. Is this significantly too little for the area? I know the subbie didn’t just apply ‘lumps’ but spread it all over.

As for the underfloor heating mat, this was 10 sq.m. The tiler stapled through the peel-off sticky strips (which he didn’t peel off and use) into the plywood beneath and also through the plastic mesh at the ends of runs and at corners on turns but not through the heating cables.

When he had finished he went away, saying he would return to apply adhesive and tiles the next day. So that meant I had ample opportunity to examine the matting, which I did because he had worked so quickly with the staple gun that I thought there was scope for mistakes but I honestly couldn’t find any staples that had pierced or even touched the heating cables. I also don’t think the matting or cables were unduly stretched.

All I’m just wondering is whether the presence of metal staples of itself in the vicinity could cause electrical interference to the operation of the mat? But I think the same could be said of screws used to fix down the plywood subfloor. So I think we can rule it out as a problem, right?

I took the precaution of photographing the position of the heat sensor probe with measures against it, just for the purpose of locating it in future.

At this stage I had no reasons that I knew of to be dissatisfied with the job.

I’ve since shown the photograph to my electrician and he said the probe is incorrectly placed. Again, sorry for the lack of photos. The probe cable runs inside the conduit supplied with the mat. This conduit is laid in a straight line in a grove of removed plywood. At the open end of the conduit the probe is positioned outside the conduit and at a right angle to it, in a bit of groove cut at right angle to the main groove. This was what my electrician didn’t like.

He said the probe should be inside the conduit where it can take the temperature. He said it should be midway between two heating cables whereas it was placed very close to one cable (in fact touching) which would give too hot readings. He said there shouldn’t be a right angle because this and the adhesive on top will mean it can’t be pulled out and replaced if it ever fails. He said ask the tiler to demonstrate he can pull it out and feed it back in. Any comments please?

Sorry this posting is so long but there are several issues and I’m trying to describe it accurately in the absence of photos. Sorry about that…

Thanks for all your help.

[Uheat]

Thank you all again for your very helpful replies.

I haven't managed to post the photos here yet but I am trying.

You asked about the floor area. It is 22 sq.m. The tiler told me to order 23 sq.m of tiles. But I got 24 sq.m to have spares for future repairs. The subbie used all the tiles because he broke a number when scoring and snapping badly.

The amount of flexible tile adhesive the tiler got was 13 sacks and the amount the subbie used was 9.5 bags. Is this significantly too little for the area? I know the subbie didn’t just apply ‘lumps’ but spread it all over.

As for the underfloor heating mat, this was 10 sq.m. The tiler stapled through the peel-off sticky strips (which he didn’t peel off and use) into the plywood beneath and also through the plastic mesh at the ends of runs and at corners on turns but not through the heating cables.

When he had finished he went away, saying he would return to apply adhesive and tiles the next day. So that meant I had ample opportunity to examine the matting, which I did because he had worked so quickly with the staple gun that I thought there was scope for mistakes but I honestly couldn’t find any staples that had pierced or even touched the heating cables. I also don’t think the matting or cables were unduly stretched.

All I’m just wondering is whether the presence of metal staples of itself in the vicinity could cause electrical interference to the operation of the mat? But I think the same could be said of screws used to fix down the plywood subfloor. So I think we can rule it out as a problem, right?

I took the precaution of photographing the position of the heat sensor probe with measures against it, just for the purpose of locating it in future.

At this stage I had no reasons that I knew of to be dissatisfied with the job.

I’ve since shown the photograph to my electrician and he said the probe is incorrectly placed. Again, sorry for the lack of photos. The probe cable runs inside the conduit supplied with the mat. This conduit is laid in a straight line in a grove of removed plywood. At the open end of the conduit the probe is positioned outside the conduit and at a right angle to it, in a bit of groove cut at right angle to the main groove. This was what my electrician didn’t like.

He said the probe should be inside the conduit where it can take the temperature. He said it should be midway between two heating cables whereas it was placed very close to one cable (in fact touching) which would give too hot readings. He said there shouldn’t be a right angle because this and the adhesive on top will mean it can’t be pulled out and replaced if it ever fails. He said ask the tiler to demonstrate he can pull it out and feed it back in. Any comments please?

Sorry this posting is so long but there are several issues and I’m trying to describe it accurately in the absence of photos. Sorry about that…

Thanks for all your help.

If stapled through the mat and not the cables then this is fine. Your sparky id correct about the conduit and the floor sensor. IF it was to fail now you would have to try and fit into the grout lines or even by the skirting board which is not ideal. But to be honest it needs relaying as it is Far to close to the heating element. As already said it should be an equal distance between the cable runs.

If it is being redone and your tiler needs help then tell him to give me a call.

Thanks

[Dave]

Mary, You can create an album in your profile>>> TilersForums.co.uk | Tile Forums | Tiling Forum - View Profile: Mary

And upload pictures to that or if you click post reply>>> then scroll down there is a manage attachments tab click that and you can browse your pc for the photo's and up load that way ( pics no bigger than 600 x 450)..

If you still having probs let me know and you can email them to me and i will post them for you..

[Saltire69]

What size were the bags off adhesive Mary. If they were 20kg bags,then thats alot off adhesive he has used on 22m2 floor. Would assume the he has maybe used a 20mm trowel to cover ufh instead of self levelling it. You might get away without damaging ufh if he has.

[mikethetile]

hi mary

it does pay to be nice to tilers

lots of tea...........biccies ...........cake maybe

sorry about your job.........agree with answers given so no point repeating them

hope you resolve this

mike

[Mary]

Hello again, and sorry for the delay in replying. I'm trying to post the photo of the sensor....lets try...oh that's only a thumbnail, can you see it alright?

[wall2floortilin]

Mary as quoted by one of the other members aaron, prior to removing any tiles a meter with sound alert system should be connected, these can be purchased for around £14, even if self leveling hasnt been used its not the end of the world, i have just removed 12 tiles,(not my work) from a clients kitchen floor as the tiler has nailed all ply rather than using screws, he also did not glue his ply down so it resulted in tiles cracking along the same line as the ply followed. there was no self leveling compound, providing they remove grout from between the tiles before attempting to smash the tile working from centre outwards, you can remove the tile. if you cause damage to the heat pack it is still not the end of the world as i have a contract with the floor warming company, we supply repair kits. hope this has been some help, this is another story of poor workmanship and i hope you come out on top.

[CJ CERAMICS]

lifting and replacing the worst of the tiles? do you have alot of spare tiles left over because if not and he's going to buy more then you cant guarantee that they will be the same shade as per manufactures spec.
id have the job done from scratch. best for you and gives your tiler a chance to show HIS skills and keep his rep.

[wall2floortilin]

lifting and replacing the worst of the tiles? do you have alot of spare tiles left over because if not and he's going to buy more then you cant guarantee that they will be the same shade as per manufactures spec.
id have the job done from scratch. best for you and gives your tiler a chance to show HIS skills and keep his rep.

i agreewith cj ceramics, i have not read the entire thread but if there is more damages than what you have srare tiles its time to call time and ask for the work to be totally redone> sorry. if his rep is any good he wont dispute this. Kind Regards wall2floortilin

[Gazebo]

Trading Standards are very helpful, four and a half years ago before I started tiling I had the misfortune of getting a tiler who advertised as a "Slate Specialist" to tile my kitchen and hall floors , even although I was not a tiler at the time I knew that the job was not good by any standards....

Shocking spacing.
Shocking setting out and cutting,
Grout not cleaned off properly, leaving grout in ridges
Grout mixed too thin causing slumping.

Did not pay him and asked him to lift all tiles, provide new and re lay to an acceptable standard.... he declined. After receiving a number of threatening letters I went to Trading Standards who put me in touch with a highly qualified building inspector. he came to house to inspect job and wrote a written report for me, which I forwarded a copy of to the tiler, threatening to take him to court ( did not bother at the end ) but heard no more from him after.
Tiles still down as I have not got round to replacing yet, will post photos on rogues gallery when i get a mo'

Hi Leatherface,
can you remember how much you had to pay the inspector for the report.?
cheers
Gary

[Gazebo]

oh and Hi Mary, good luck with this job im with the others here i think you should request the entire floor tiling to be retiled by the guy who you wanted to do it in the 1st place as it was his work which got him the job not his subbies. and also if you can feel gaps under the tile at the edges you can bet your life there are gaps under the ones in the middle which means there is no solid bed of adhesive.?

and i dont know of any tilers that leave their customer to clean up the floor, maybe at a push if your tiling family or freinds houses.

Goood luck
Gary