Mortar beds on walls and floors?

[Rob Z]

How many of you are called on to do mortar work? It's few and far between here in most markets in the US. There are selected markets where mud is still king, however. I learned from a guy who had been floating mud since the 60's, and I think he learned it from a guy who had started back in the 1930's.

A lot of old houses have mortar over wooden lath, but after about the late 30's metal lath was used.

Here is a picture that shows both a finished float (on the left) and a wall with the scratch coat (rear wall) and the wall that is prepped for mud with paper and galvanized metal lath (on the right).

Here, floor mud is usually 4 or 5 to 1 (coarse sand and cement). Wall mud is usually 4 or 5 to 1 to 1 (sand/cement/masonry lime). Some areas of the country use something called "fireclay" instead of the lime, which I have never seen.

We really love to do this work because it is old-fashioned and is done the same way it as been done for centuries, all by hand.

[Gracer]

Hi Rob,

Still do the occasional bathroom floor wet bedded here in Oz. Nearly all bathrooms are screeded out before sticking the tiles down though these days, still, a tough skill to learn. A mix of 4:1 river sand & portland cement, with an additive like bondcrete in the mixing water.

Don't reckon there would be to many guys doing walls the way you described anymore, I learnt off guys who did, but adhesive is king now...faster & more cost effective. I have tried removing tiles that have been fixed in that manner....man they are like flint.
I will sometimes use the handfixing method on stairs if the concrete is so bad all the stairs are uneven. If they are not too bad I will just pack them out with adhesive, usually cement based.

[lucius]

Learnt how to sand and cement wall tiles at college in Australia many years ago never had the cause to do so since. We have a lot hand made Terracota over here and i always lay them in sand and cement untill few weeks ago i watched Spaniard doing them with Addy and thought why arent i doing it like this, funny how you get set in your ways.
Lucius.

[cornish_crofter]

Rob

What you described there is very similar to lathe and plaster that was common practice in the UK, until they invented plasterboard, or dry wall as you like to call it over there.

We have 4 period houses (Victorian houses) in Cornwall. Unfortunately there is very little lathe and plaster left in any of them. Two of them had the lathe and plaster ripped out before we even bought them, the third had one lathe and plaster ceiling, which was about to come down, so we removed and replaced it before the tenant's son had about 1 tonne of ceiling fall on him.

The house we live in still has a couple of lathe and plaster ceilings and a lathe and plaster wall. Unfortunately eceonomics dictate that these will have to be replaced by plasterboard, they need replacing, and one will need to come out as it's in the wrong place for us.

[doug boardley]

done acres and acres of it over the years Rob! not bother so muh now tho'!

[LM Ceramics]

sand and cement fixing is very old know and not really used anymore i was taught at college on sand and cement fixing never done it though

[Rob Z]

So much of the old framing in these old houses where we work is so twisted, rough, out of plumb, etc, that it seems to take forever to try and scab on studs and blocking to make the walls and floor flat.

Sometimes it does seem to be a bit of relief when we get to a job and the walls are flat enough for backer board and the floors flat enough for Ditra or Noble CIS (another sheet membrane sold here in the US)....all that mudding is a lot of work!


And my own house has tile stuck with mastic over drywall, because that is all the builder offered.

My in-laws live with us, so the shower I built for them to use is all mud, with fancy Italian Casa Dolce porcelain and a bench. Maybe someday I will get to redo the stuff upstairs that we use.

Thanks for the perspective from the UK and Australia...it seems that things are the same here as there.

[oogabooga]

Don't worry Rob, crappy framing is a worldwide phenomenon. Some tilers make the effort to plumb/flatten walls, but the majority don't. Glad I'm not the only one who finds it takes ages to shim/strap framing to get it flat

I like mud walls because they're soooo perfect, but it's rarely practical because of the build out around windows and doors. Another thing I like about the mud is the sound deadening qualities - if you have a room that backs onto the shower it's much quieter than tile over cementboard or plasterboard.

[whitebeam]

Another material which I used a long time ago but well underated in my mind, rib-lath http://www.catnic.com/libraries/document/385.pdf

[Rob Z]

Whitebeam, I never knew what that stuff was called...we see it in old houses. I've never seen it at the supply house where I buy my expanded metal lath.

[whitebeam]

It's a lot stronger than eml but to buy would have order off a specialized house/outlet

[2Balls]

Sand and Cement is still part of the Apprentiship here in Germany2Balls

[garythetiler]

I am starting a 40 sqm bin store area tomorrow and will be doing the walls in sand and cement fixing i will post photos on this thread for every one to have a look

[lucius]

Cant wait to see it but why sand & cement ?
Lucius

[oogabooga]

Gary, had a look at your website - that's some seriously impressive work there mate. Look forward to your render/screed pics.

[2Balls]

Cant wait to see it but why sand & cement ?
Lucius

Why sand and cement? The surface does`nt have to be Flat,You don`t need a Plasterer, you don`t need a Dryliner.Material costs are cheaper,good for cellars ect that suffer from Flooding, the list goes on.Ask a Roman. Last but not least it is traditonal, it come before Airfix(sarcasm)

2Balls

[lucius]

Hi 2 Balls got to agree with what you say, ime into old school work myself worked on lots of old buildings over the years with a 5 year stint on a country estate cant remember exactly now but something like 10 farms and 200 houses between 1500ad up to Victorian but most were Georgian and many were listed, and of course my 200 year old house in Spain.When i did my tiling course in Australia in 1981 the first 2 weeks were tiling with sand and cement when i asked the instructor why we were doing this, dont get me wrong i was realy interested, he said this method will get you over the worst wall you will come across which is quite correct, a couple of times over the years i have come across situations where i could have done it but up till now i havent now looking for the next opportunity to give it a go just to prove i can still do it could be years though till i get a chance.
Lucius

[garythetiler]

here are a few pics as promised i havent fixed like this for a while and need to pick up my speed ,i will post some more when the room is completed

[garythetiler]

here are few more

[Dave]

Walls must have prety bad were they gary to use large amount of bedding..

[garythetiler]

Walls must have prety bad were they gary to use large amount of bedding..

varied from 3-4mm to 10-12mm in places

[whitebeam]

Is that a 3-1 for fixing Gary

[garythetiler]

I mixed it 5-1 and added plasticiser

[doug boardley]

what sand did you use Gary?

[garythetiler]

medium grade bricklaying sand

[doug boardley]

varied from 3-4mm to 10-12mm in places

plasterer needs telling offto get it that far out on a block wall, unless it was the bricklayers (more likely imho)

[whitebeam]

Usual story, the next trade will get over that

[lucius]

This is the bit i dont get its far quicker to go over scratch coat and dubb out to flatten the wall than back butter all them tiles, well it is for me anyway, looks cold their mate.
Lucius

[Rob Z]

Hi Gary,

It's to see other methods being used. Is that mud scratched directly on the block? Do you use a bonder to stick the scratch coat to the block? I don't think we have ever gone right over the scratch coat with the tile or stone, always have floated the second layer first, then set the tile.

[lucius]

Ho Rob thats the point ime making a float coat laid flat and plumb over the scratch coat and then tiles laid in addy to me seems quicker than the trad method on an area that big but i may be wrong.If the blocks are concrete or clinker they dont need anything on them just a wetting down before scratching other type of blocks may need SBR before scratching.
Lucius